Solid episode. No True Lady seems very natural podcasting and is very witty so she made a great contribution to the group. Amin and Kyle were great as always.

I'm glad the guys mentioned the Christmas Filks. It would be great to get a lot of participation this year. I'm doing at least two new songs and I'm almost done with the lyrics. It was a lot of fun before and submittig lyrics actually got me started posting in the forums.

Ok so one minor point but the horn discussion got a little confusing. I think (and maybe this is why Kyle seemed confused) that Mance actually did find a horn in the frostfangs that he tried to pass off as The Horn. It was impressive and huge and he used it to threaten Jon when Jon went to treat with him. Melissandre burned this horn in her sacrificial fires. Later (maybe it was Tormund) someone confirmed that that was actually not the Horn of Winter. He claimed If it was, Mance would have used it.

What in the 7 hells could Thoren Smallwood be compensating for?

ahahahaha, excellent. Also, that is an exact summary of the horns! Also, I had a thought on Tyrion, which was basically that I don't think it's class consciousness that prevents his relationship from Shae with becoming real. It's him, he treats her like property. He wants to posses her, not to be with her, and she knows it. No wonder it ends so damn badly.

I feel like there's definite resistance on both sides. Book Shae is pretty vapid and self-centered and I do wonder if she was ever even capable of feeling anything for Tyrion at all. He definitely pushed her away with his attitude of ownership, but I never felt for a second that any of her affection was genuine. Maybe the Tywin situation is clouding my perception, but I think it's made pretty evident earlier what her true motivation is.

True, but she was a prostitute he rounded up. I'm not trying to put all the blame on him, but if he'd been the man he thinks he was and not the man he is then she might have grown to trust him and actually like him more, but in the end it wouldn't really change what happens to her at all. There's no world in which she loses her life to protect him from Cersei and Tywin, the only thing that really changes is how delusional he is.

Oh I dunno. I think if he really felt she was only a possession it wouldn't have hurt so badly to see her on the witness stand, and then in Tywin's bed. He knew he was self-deluding but he couldn't help it.

Good episode, I'm really enjoying the parade of guest hosts over the last few episodes, it's nice to get a new voice sometimes.

I'd never really considered whether Varys was lying about the events surrounding his emasculation, but upon considering it, I'm starting to wonder. Like No True Lady (I think) said, I had the impression the sorcerer was trying to summon a demon or something of that sort, which is rather unlike most of the magic we've seen, but just the thing to add a note of the fantastical to a story. Of course, it could be an embellishment, or perhaps a spell that allowed the sorcerer to communicate with another human across distances, but the voice seems to hold so much significance in the story that I'm not sure I think that's likely.

I think Tyrion might have been happier if he could have viewed Shae only as a possession, but I think it's pretty clear he didn't. He's constantly trying to convince/remind himself that she doesn't love him, you don't worry about the feelings of objects.

He didn't view her only as a possession, but he treated her as one. That was part of the problem.

I see what you are saying LMB and I think we can all agree it was a fucked relationship with way too much emotional baggage on Tyrion's part.

Agreed, though I still think possession isn't quite the right word, he certainly never thought of her as an intellectual equal who he could persuade/explain things to, and tended to treat her as a servant he could just give orders to.

Yes. On an intellectual level he's such a contemptuous little creature and that was part of the problem between him and Shae. I think less than equal is closer than possession. He did show actually concern for Shae and saw her as a person, but he didn't treat her as an equal. Intellectually she wasn't and that being Tyrion's only real gift it isn't surprising he would judge a woman that way. However, what I think was really the problem was his conflict between wanting to believe this beautiful creature could love him and his paranoia that nobody could love him, least of all a prostitute. His past trauma left him both very needy and very suspicious.

I was intrigued by the voice as well. As you said, we haven't really had any word on demons before, aside from the Drowned God and R'hllor being called demons by practitioners of other faiths. There are some hints that obsidian candles were used for long range communication, so there is some precedent for that at least.

I also love this quote from the chapter:

After reading the chapter in Storm about Symon, I began to think of the fate of the other singers in the series and it appears some of them have had no luck whatsoever. Does GRRM, like Edmure, have an aversion to them?

- Symon Silvertongue is killed by Bronn and Bowl of Brown'd
- Dareon is killed by Arya for breaking his vows
- Marillion has his eyes removed and eventually jumps to his death from a Sky Cell
- Hamish the Harper dies after being arrested for the "Margaery's adultery scheme"
- Wat, the Blue Bard, has been tortured beyond the realms of sanity (worse than Ramsay did to Reek?)
- From the pink letter, we hear that Mance is suffering at the hands of Ramsay, although this could be fake.

Who does GRRM still have to deal with?
- Denzo D'han, the Warrior Bard, of the Windblown. The Battle of Meereen is going to rake up some casualties so there is an opportunity.
- Tom o' Sevenstreams is the inside man for Red Wedding 2.0. A few Freys were killed in during the original RW, maybe the BWB will take some casualities.
- Whitesmile Wat is heading west with Forley Prester's escort. Will the BWB/Blackfish try and rescue Edmure?
- Orland of Oldtown is the Court Bard with a very minor role but King's Landing is likely to erupt any day now with the trial and Aegon on the move.
- Alesander Frey is said to be a singer who was absent from the RW. It would be just like GRRM to have him hanged whilst pleading his genuine innocence.
- Other minor singers: Rymund the Rhymer, Alia of Braavos, Alaric of Eysen, Bethany Fair-fingers, Aemon Costayne, Galyeon of Cuy & Collio of Quaynis

Tommen is held at Rosby by Jacelyn Bywater's men during the Battle of the Blackwater. Blount is left rotting in the dungeon for his cowardice. It is only after the battle was won that the Kettleblacks 'rescue' him because, like Boros Blount, none of the men wanted to throw their life away for the little lion.

Anyone read The Armageddon Rag? I haven't yet but feel like GRRM's singer problem would probably make more sense after reading that.

I have, loved it. You're right though, it's a common theme. And Also, yeah possession may have been slightly too strong a term, servant is better. But it certainly doesn't encourage trust or anything truly positive.

Could Qhorin learning to fight with his left hand have relevance for Jaime?

We know of three horns not two correct?

1. Euron's Dragon Horn
2. The Dragonglass Fist of the First Men Horn

but Mance did have a horn.

3. Mance's 'Horn of Winter'

I think Ygritte admits to Jon that it is not the real Horn of Winter but they did find the horn in the tombs. Melisandre burns it in ADWD Jon III along with Rattleshirt/Mance and it made that weird flash/crack in the fire. The horn may have been saved by Mel but we have seen three horns so far in the text.

I feel that the dragonglass horn has to have some meaning and it being in Oldtown may have some impact on the Grand Maester conspiracy.

From my re-read summary:

After Daven leaves, Jaime goes to find Ser Ilyn for another beating. I'm wondering if this was another plot that suffered without the five year gap after ASOS. Jaime won't have the time to learn to fight left-handed like the Halfhand miraculously did, so for the time being he is reliant on his mind and words like his brother.

That makes sense, I tend to agree. There's a ton of things that I think are going to be heavily changed by the 5 year gap. Whatever, it's fantasy. If Jaime learns how to fight with his left hand I'll live with it

I always thought that Varys story was true, but the more I think about it, the more I love the thought that he just came up with that off the cuff. Of course that's as likely as him being a non-eunuch, blackfyre, merling.

At this point, very little I could read anywhere int he books would surprise me. Plenty of stuff would bother me or seem improbable, but anything could happen.

New theory. Varys is Kaiser Söze.

Varys as Kaiser Söze is to obvious.

Kaiser Söze would be more like Pod.

I think as long as you're a warrior as well as a singer you're not necessarily on the hit list. Mance and Tom o' Sevens have been doing pretty well for a while, though time will tell.

So does anyone think Marillion is still alive? Everything that happens to him is all 'off screen' and Sansa even mentions how good and clean he looked when he confessed the murder.

I'm pretty sure after Marillion had fulfilled his purpose LF disposed of him.

Yeah LF wouldn't leave him lying around, that would be just plain sloppy.