| A Podcast Of Ice and Fire http://podcastoficeandfire.com/forum/ |
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| Episode 89 http://podcastoficeandfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1652 |
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| Author: | rpawson [ Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Episode 89 |
Amin and Ashley took Kyle's Canadian spelling virginity. The end of innocence. I'm not sure if weekends qualify as "war time", Kyle. |
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| Author: | brynden [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Hi there - not finished but I have to stop my listening for a short time because I have to disagree with MImi. Robert did not started the rebellion because of Lyanna. Robert did not start the rebellion at all. It was Jon Arryn that raised his banners for his foster-sons and nothing else. The "fight for a girl" think was the romantic touch the historians (and Robert) gave it to have a justification why Robert killed Rhaegar. The real starting point of the rebellion was that the king killed one of the highest lords and his heir in a brutal way and demanded the next oldest son (and his friend who was also one of the highest lords). That is the main spark that started the rebellion. And not that Rhaegar rode of with Lyanna - it was more the political implication that the King brutally kills not one traitor but more or less destroys the foundations and pillars of his realm by randomly demanding some lords heads (Ned's head would have been a logical choice because he is Rickard's son - but to demand Robert's head also is purely random). In that respect the two rebellions are not comparabel. And Robert wanted to be king - when he talks to Ned he says something along the lines of 2You know, winning a kingdom was great fun, but ruling it is shitty". That implies that he really wanted to be king (which high lord does not want to be king?). He later admits that he was not the best choice, but initially he wanted to be king (and had the best claim, however far away his family-links had been). |
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| Author: | mrkorb [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
So we have "everybody is a secret Targaryen" theories and "everybody is gay" theories, but do we have any "everybody is a secret gay Targaryen" theories? |
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| Author: | brynden [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Hot Pie would surely qualifies for that one. |
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| Author: | rpawson [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
mrkorb wrote: So we have "everybody is a secret Targaryen" theories and "everybody is gay" theories, but do we have any "everybody is a secret gay Targaryen" theories? The ensuing Venn diagram boggles the mind. brynden - I'm always a little unclear on the seeds of Robert's rebellion in terms of the exact sequence of events. We know the Tourney at Harrenhall came first, we know Aerys II demanded Ned and Robert's heads, we know Jon Arryn raised the banners. Was Robert looking to pick a fight before Ned's brother and father were killed? Would he have justified another reason for starting his fight with Rhaegar without that event? Would Aerys II have demanded Ned and Robert's heads if Brandon hadn't publicly threatened Rhaegar when he went to King's Landing? Was Jon Arryn looking for a reason to depose the Targaryens? I'm not sure about all of it, despite having read wiki summaries and the books and theories. Robert was probably motivated by winning the crown to some degree, but I think it's safe to say it wasn't his primary motivation. His desire for Lyanna always seemed front and center when his winning of the throne is talked about in the books. |
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| Author: | Maester Ch'vyalthan [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
rpawson wrote: I'm always a little unclear on the seeds of Robert's rebellion in terms of the exact sequence of events. We know the Tourney at Harrenhall came first, we know Aerys II demanded Ned and Robert's heads, we know Jon Arryn raised the banners. Was Robert looking to pick a fight before Ned's brother and father were killed? Would he have justified another reason for starting his fight with Rhaegar without that event? Would Aerys II have demanded Ned and Robert's heads if Brandon hadn't publicly threatened Rhaegar when he went to King's Landing? Was Jon Arryn looking for a reason to depose the Targaryens? I'm not sure about all of it, despite having read wiki summaries and the books and theories. From the way I understand it, the timeline plays out in this order: -Tourney at Harrenhall, Rhaegar crowns Lyanna, not clear whether anything came out of it physically but this seems unlikely due to Elia being there with Rhaegar. -Some time after this, Lyanna and Rhaegar go missing and Brandon Stark receives the news while on his way to Riverrun, no doubt to see Cat. -Brandon rides to KL with Glover, Mallister, Royce and Arryn and tells Rhaegar to come out and die, who was probably in Dorne with Lyanna, although I always wondered why he would go to his wife's land with a woman he ran off with, and I subscribe to the theory that they were at Summerhall for some time, due to Rhaegar's obsession with it. -Aerys has Brandon and companions arrested, summons their fathers and kills them all except for Ethan Glover for some unknown reason. -I imagine at this point Ned wanted to avenge his father and knowing Robert, he was still mad about Lyanna, which makes me wonder why he didn't go with Brandon in the first place to KL but maybe this was because Ned stopped him knowing how reckless he could be and hoping his older brother would get her back peacefully. -Aerys demands for Ned and Robert's head, no doubt knowing that they would not sit quietly and hoped that Jon Arryn would bow to the Crown's wishes rather than dissent, but of course Jon refused and knowing that their was no other option and probably encouraged by Ned and Robert, raised his banners in revolt. I personally don't think Arryn was looking for a reason to depose the Targaryens but like the Starks had a sense of honour, and would not allow his friend Rickard's death go unanswered. I also believe that Jon may have feared that Robert and Ned would have raised their banners regardless of whether he gave his own support or not, and so as his wards the only way to keep them safe was to join and bolster their forces. |
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| Author: | jesicka309 [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
If I remember correctly, one of Jon Arryns only two direct heirs was killed with Brandon! Not to mention one of his bannermens sons (Royce). Traditionally, highborn captives are at least ransomed. Was Rickard the only Lord who went to Kings Landing at Aerys' summons? Jon Arryn could have rebelled on his own accord. In one foul swoop he lost an heir (which we know Jon was kind of short on), and he had Eddard grieving his brother and father and sister, Robert being pissed off about Lyanna (even if he was going to cheat on her, it's still an affront to his honor if they were betrothed) and he had Aerys saying "please give me more high lords to burn!" Not surprised that Jon was like "yeah, not this time." |
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| Author: | gsdg [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
On Dorne and the Faith of the Seven: I think the Seven is still the dominant religion in Dorne. The Orphans of the Greenblood seem to be a minority. The Martells are definitely members of the Faith - when Arianne is imprisoned, one of the books in her room is the Seven-Pointed Star. Oh, and the woman sent to marry Maron Martell was Daenerys Targaryen. |
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| Author: | Lord Yellow Snow [ Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
I have been in alot of traffic lately and started to listen to the WHOLE episodes from 10. Questions: 1) Why do we not get the great crazy Mimi vs. Chris fights of the 20's released 2) Chase does have a dreamy voice 3) Mimi might be my ex if not for the Asian thing. 4) Amin is so loud 5) after 60 episodes you guys sound alot better 6) who cares 7) keep trucking 8) i miss Ashley 2 ;( |
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| Author: | brynden [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Why do I think the rebellion was not because of Lyanna? - Because Robert did not ride to King's Landing to demand her back. (That was Brandon) - Because Rickard and Brandon did not call their banners because of that. - Because Robert did not call his banners because of that. - Because the Lord who initially raised was Arryn - and that because his heir was dead AND his foster-sons were treatened (I always assumed Eddard was Jon Arryn's back-up-heir) The Lyanna+Rhaegar story might have set things into motion - but the whole story was not over the edge until the King burned his Warden of the North alive and killed his heir - only to demand more highborn heads afterwards. They all might have had plans what to happen next and when. But nobody would have believed that Rickard is really in danger (else he would not have gone). Sorry for my fervent backing up of my theory, but I really believe that the whole "Robert started a war only for a woman" is totally bullshit - and all the people involved know that (and frustrated Robert just lies to himself - or all others lied to him). The lords raised because they wanted a political change - and to get the king they had to sacrifice the crown-prince who lead the armies. Now that I think about it - might the Rhaegar+Lyanna thing have been set up? What did an unwed highborn lady somewhere in the realm? Harrenhal was long ago - why did Lyanna stay close to Kingslanding. Did anybody want that she meet the crown-prince again but forgot to tell Brandon? |
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| Author: | Maester Ch'vyalthan [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
jesicka309 wrote: If I remember correctly, one of Jon Arryns only two direct heirs was killed with Brandon! Not to mention one of his bannermens sons (Royce). Traditionally, highborn captives are at least ransomed. Was Rickard the only Lord who went to Kings Landing at Aerys' summons? Elbert Arryn was indeed the heir, after Ronnel died of... something stupid like a stomach infection at the time of his birth. So in his case, his father couldn't answer Aerys' summons because he was already dead, although that makes me wonder whether Jon Arryn was actually summoned in Ronnel's stead, as Elbert's uncle. It seems though that both Jeffory Mallister and Kyle Royce were executed along with their fathers, though we don't have a clear picture of either's family tree so it's quite difficult to tell. As Ethan Glover was imprisoned and not executed, it seems safe to say that his father did not arrive and so maybe Aerys was waiting until the older Glover arrived but got distracted when, you know, the whole realm blew up in his face. So by my count it was 2 Starks, 2 Mallisters, 2 Royces and an Arryn that died. Not sure how this helps but it's all information. |
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| Author: | jesicka309 [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
brynden wrote: Now that I think about it - might the Rhaegar+Lyanna thing have been set up? What did an unwed highborn lady somewhere in the realm? Harrenhal was long ago - why did Lyanna stay close to Kingslanding. Did anybody want that she meet the crown-prince again but forgot to tell Brandon? Good point! Where was Lyanna kidnapped from? It certainly wasn't Winterfell...though it could have been after Harrenhal if you stretch the timelines a little, unlikely but. She could have been on her way to wed Robert? Hmm. |
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| Author: | browndragon [ Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
brynden wrote: In that respect the two rebellions are not comparabel. I agreed with everything you said in your original post and your subsequent theory backing posts except for the quote above. Like you excellently pointed out the facts about "Robert's Rebellion" make it clear the rebellion wasn't originally his idea at all but started with Jon Arryn when he refused to give up the wards he was sworn to protect to Mad King Aerys. We also know, the true catalyst of the rebellion was Aerys killing to the Warden of the North without a real trial, not Rhaegar supposed kidnapping of Lyanna. Like Mimi mentioned in the podcast regarding the concept of narratives that they teach in business school and political science. It all depends on how you say the story, and Robert starting a rebellion for the love of his betrothed simplifies the real story. It makes Robert a romantic hero in the story told by his supporters. But his detractors will say he was a selfish-spurned suitor who endangered the realm by usurping the throne from their true king by (i.e. the story told by Viserys to Dany). That is why I don't think you can easily dismiss the comparisons of Robert's rebellion to the Blackfyre Rebellion. I totally agree with Mimi when she pointed that out on her essay (I want to talk about this more in a new thread for the Mystery Knight). If you apply the same romantic hero narrative to Daemon Blackfyre, it was a noble cause. |
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| Author: | Bina007 [ Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Loved the episode. Definitely want more on the Blackfyre Rebellion. But most of all - kudos to Amin for acknowledging that UK English is basically the canon from which everyone else is basically fan-fic'ing deviant spelling! |
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| Author: | jed o'white hart [ Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
excellent episode , excellent guest , you should get him back on ,( maybe even a regular spot ?) Cant wait for the overdue MK episode , I think I shall reread all the D&E stuff in preparation, I'm pretty foggy on the blackfyre sequence . And well done to the canadians for not being lazy with our ( and I mean ALL of our) wonderful language and this made me laugh  culur
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| Author: | brynden [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
I like to add that I really really enjoyed the part when Kyle thinks the others are fooling him by telling him that the USA and Canadia (as Kyle calls it) have different written language. @Kyle - another example - you only have to look at the topics in this forum: Amin opened a "Favourite episode" poll linecom1 opened a "Favorite host" poll |
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| Author: | Kyle [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
brynden wrote: Amin opened a "Favourite episode" poll linecom1 opened a "Favorite host" poll Mind Blown |
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| Author: | linecom1 [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
silly canadians......... there's no 'u' in favorite......  its because they're speaking canadian, we speak english............its similar, but different language 
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| Author: | Maester Ch'vyalthan [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Actually, you're speaking American  Favourite is the 'correct' English spelling. |
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| Author: | Alias [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Actually we're speaking Amurikan. |
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| Author: | rpawson [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Kyle wrote: brynden wrote: Amin opened a "Favourite episode" poll linecom1 opened a "Favorite host" poll Mind Blown Blouwn |
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| Author: | brynden [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
The question is - is it always spelled as in "about"?? |
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| Author: | FTWard [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
brynden wrote: The question is - is it always spelled as in "about"?? Canadian pronounciation is a-boot. |
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| Author: | rpawson [ Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Due to the abuut spelling. |
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| Author: | linecom1 [ Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
Maester Ch'vyalthan wrote: Actually, you're speaking American Favourite is the 'correct' English spelling. are you suure about that?? i could've sworn us AMURICANS speak english over here. those weirdos in england speak "british". also i still think favorite is the "correct" spelling because i learned that in ENGLISH class, not AMERICAN class..........duh 
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| Author: | Maester Ch'vyalthan [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
 (Shameless excuse to post a picture of the cute puppy) |
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| Author: | LordManderBlee [ Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Episode 89 |
The moral of the story is, of course, 'MURICA! |
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