The aftershow discussion about what to do if the show overtakes the books seemed to me to be missing the solution: Make APOIAF the refuge for book holdouts, who'll be driven from their homes like they were the Rhoynar and HBO's spoilers were the dragons of Valyria. It's perfect.

But would it be safe, there are trolls even here!

Yeah right....I know a fair few show only people at my office and plenty of them like Tyrion (and Peter Dinklages performance), but none of them think he's the main character (unlike say Don Draper in Mad Men) because it's an ensemble cast (if anything people right now are wondering when Danys going to take the Iron Throne). The watercooler talk tends to be about particular scenes more than anything else.



Go watch Spartacus, then we can have a discussion about gratuitous nudity in Television. GoT is frankly tame in comparison, and nowhere near as exploitative. APOIAF....home of the prudes (unless it's wanting more dick action).



So everything would be perfect if it wasn't for those pesky 'show only' types then? I suppose their the reason we never got the chain either? Please...the hollow 'elitism' is tangible. Check your privilege.

As regards the staying in blackout talk....kind of hilarious in truth. There's pretty much zero chance that George is going to finish the series before the TV series concludes so short of pulling a LOST and heading to an Island then you're going to get spoiled. Might as well experience it first hand rather than through the filter of peoples impressions.

I would love to get more episodes on the later books, especially Dance. However, i think you should all do your rereads first. I had my first reread this summer. As underwhelming as large parts of the book where on first read, i hold Dance in much higher regard after second read. I really is a great book (that just ends a bit too soon). And the Meereen Arena chapter is right up there for me with some of the best chapters in Storm.

So, unless GoT has more nudity than anything else, there's no chance it has any gratuitous nudity?


What? My privilege as someone who read the books first?


You mean like David and Dan?

Hang on...are you critiquing my experience of talking with MY show only friends? I posted a link to this Podcast in a thread a little while back: http://podcastoficeandfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2159

I literally had to step in at one point and say "so guys, let's talk about characters OTHER than Tyrion." And I never said that things would be perfect without show only viewers. I only said that some of the things we worry about (Tyrion being made too perfect was one example, male viewers totally loving the sexy stuff regardless of how gratuitous it is) are actually opinions that people hold.

I just want to say Kadayi - while you may disagree with me, just as people disagree with other people all the time, I'd appreciate it if you managed to be a bit more civil about it, or at least not be so condescending about it. Saying things like "Please...the hollow 'elitism' is tangible. Check your privilege" and "APOIAF....home of the prudes " aren't going to make me change my mind. They're just going to make me dislike you.

I don't share Ashley's optomistic view that AFFC/ADWD is going to stretch beyond 1.5 seasons long. There is alot of great world building aspects but not a lot of plot movement (mostly getting people from one area to another). Which doesn't lend to a good story on TV (for the masses) And the addition of a ton of new characters. Logistic reasons could lead to alot of cuts / streamlining here.

The new fad in TV seems to be making the "Final Season" last 2 years and shortening the number of episodes in that year of the half season. I could see a 6 episode Part 1 final Season. With a Conclusion Part 2 Final Season being 6-8 episodes.

I really doubt that they are going to go on hiatus for a year. Too many actors and contracts... logistical nightmare. Maybe moving it from a April-June airing to a July-September will happen though...

its awesome how much you guys have been able to get elio and linda on lately. i relisten to all of their comments for hints about future story developments. it would be cool if having them on became a regular part of the aftershow. i loved elio's line about liking mediocre things.

Great Podcast as usual.

Regarding Elio and Linda, I am decidedly not a fan of Linda. (Elio is a bit more measured in his criticism) However I think having both of them on for the occasional show review is a good thing. While I don't agree with the levels of their angst regarding the TV show, it offers up a counterpoint.

Now I wouldn't want to hear them for every episode review... but 2 times a season is definitely a good balance.

I really appreciate the podcast's containment of the Nerd Rage. Letting it out at times but not letting it consume them.

No, I’m responding to the post you made earlier, and your comments pertaining to show only fans.



Good for you. Personally I’m not here to win friends; I’m here to talk ASOIAF & GOT. If I think there’s value in what a post says I’ll agree with it and if I don’t I’ll call it out. Your view of how show only fans see things does not gel with my own experiences, so I've called it out. Feel free to feel aggrieved, but recognize that it wouldn’t matter who said it, it would still have been called. Similarly I don't agree with Elio or Linda in that regard. I think they're projecting a belief that they've chosen to subscribe to (being the self appointed bastions of all thinks Book), rather than actually reflecting brass tacks reality.



It’s a subscription cable drama made for adults and shown after the watershed based on books that are adult in nature. I think getting hot under the collar about a bit of frankly mild nudity in a day and age when any adult is just a Google search away from unmitigated hardcore pornography smacks of a certain puritanical streak in the individual in question. Does the show need nudity? I'd say it could probably get by without it to some extent (the cave scene between Jon & Ygritte might of been difficult) but at the same time I'm also not that uncomfortable with it when push comes to shove (it's just flesh). If there's anything on Cable TV that bothers me it's the lack of swearing on shows like Breaking Bad and Mad Men. Not that I'm wanting Don Draper or Walter White to be dropping F-Bombs everywhere, but the occasional 'motherfucker!!' wouldn't go amiss when the shit hits the fan.



White knight much? Or merely suffering a forum identity crisis?



Impressions of the show.

I don't think anyone on this forum, certainly not many people, have espoused a problem with nudity generally, just gratuitous nudity, that isn't there to serve the story.


That was legitimately pretty funny. But I am curious what privilege you were referring to.


My point was that people are talking about avoid the show because they don't want GRRM's ending filtered through GoT's writers and producers, so getting the ending from GoT isn't 'first hand.'

I've yet to see this distinction in effect.



Be curious I guess.



Pretty sure George is a listed producer. Certainly he's less involved with the day to day production at this point in time, but I'd envisage that his role would increase in terms of narrative input regarding the shows concluding season(s) assuming he hasn't finished ADoS by then. As it is we're aware that he's outlined the narrative arc of the principal characters to the shows writers and in effect how the series is intended to conclude. There's no reason to doubt that more flesh won't be added to those bones by George as time and the series progresses.

Regardless, trying to avoid show spoilers in the absence of the books in the age of the internet is a hiding to nothing. There is no possibility of escape, so you might as well let it wash over you.

On the topic of Gratuitous nudity... Its HBO. That is part of what HBO does. Some people that is the reason they watch HBO.

I feel that complaining about it is like complaining water is wet.

The sooner people get used to that it is going to be a part of the show, the happier they will be. Kind of like how people needed to separate that the TV show is going to be different from the books. There will be boobs and asses, and a gratuitous amount of them. And there won't be a point to having them except to have them in some cases. (Like the Mel scene this week)

The points though that I think are valid criticism is when it steps over the line. There for shock value only. Leech on his cock, Play with her ass comment is S1, The wiping off the cum on the prostitutes face in S2, The sloppy sounds of Renly getting a blow job.

You haven't seen a distinction because no one is doing what you're saying they are, complaining about nudity as a generally bad thing. Lots of people are complaining about gratuitous nudity.


That's certainly not true. There are plenty of hit shows that I don't watch and have no idea about what happens in them.

About Mel maybe dying when giving life to Jon is it the same as Beric with Catelyn--->Stoneheart
if he's dead now that is. Just hope we won't get Jon Iceveins

Avoiding spoilers on the internet is possible. You just have to stay away from forums and the like. Going to Cons would be a real risk as well.

The place you need to worry about spoilers is from friends/acquaintances/co workers. Over hearing water cooler talk. Or you have a co worker/acquaintance/cousin who don't see regularly... who knows you watch the show comes by and wants to ask you something about it, or do some small talk. And accidentally spoil you.

You can control what you see on the internet to a point... But you can't control people interact with in real time.

Did we really see the leech on his Gendrys cock? Did we really witness said ass being played with? Did we really see the prostitute take a creamy payload in the mouth? and did we really see Maegery attempting to breathe life into Renlys flaccid penis? Or was it in fact left to our imaginations to fill in the blanks? Because I thought this conversation was about the dangerous levels of gratuitous nudity in the show, not what occurred off camera.



And by what measure is the nudity gratuitous exactly? I mean are we really getting that upset over the fact that the water in Danys bath wasn't over her nipples entirely? I mean if the shows directors were going for tit shots, why is it that half the bath shots of Dany are neck up? All that potential nipple time lost, when all they needed to do was move the camera back a couple of feet. Surely heads will roll for this oversight.



Shows whose subject matter you likely have zero investment in I'd hazard. However given you're on this very forum I doubt the same can be said of all things related to a song of ice and fire. I mean it's going to be hard to maintain radio silence when you're likely worrying whether George will even live long enough to finish the series.

Did the hosts know, when discussing the idea of the show passing the books, about the HBO producer who recently mentioned 7 seasons as the likely total?

Ashley said they could maybe get 3 seasons out of AFFC/ADWD, and I think I remember GRRM saying something similar (when discussing his hopes to stay ahead of the show). But a 7 season show most likely means that AFFC/ADWD will be turned into 1.5 seasons at most. Then 1 season for TWOW, and 1 season for ADOS.

In other words, the show would be FINISHED in 4 years time. So IMO, it's looking extremely unlikely that GRRM would be able to keep pace.

People are more worried about scenes like Theon in the Dreadfort getting taunted with naked ladies before having his dick chopped off. THAT is gratutious and turns it from a torture scene to torture porn, which IMO is not cool. I have more problems with them casting extras to be nude in a scene where nudity isn't needed than I do with Dany's bath nip shots. There's a difference between saying "can we get Mel to be naked here? Yes? Great." and "this scene is great, but we still need to cast a nude extra to writhe around in the foreground while they talk".

This is the same argument you gave before, that because there could have been more nudity, what nudity there was couldn't have been gratuitous. I think of nudity kind of the way I look at product placement. If you shoehorn in a scene where someone is offered a drink and make sure they lift their Heineken with the label out and it's generally obvious and distracting from the plot or the scene then it's bad. If it doesn't pull attention then I don't care if its a MacBook or hardcore sex.


I do, admittedly, have more interest in shows I am watching than shows I'm not. I watched Lost for two or three years though before I gave up on it, and I have no idea what happened in that.

FYI, on why the show hasn't aged Sansa up past 14, as mentioned in the last podcast: the charater had her period last season, so I don't think they're able to move her up very much,

I know I'm decidedly in the minority as far as this opinion goes, so this isn't a "change this!" observation, but: I cannot stand to listen to Elio and Linda's thoughts on the show. (Though I find them very pleasant to listen to when the books are the subject at hand.) Pod knows the 'adaptationists versus purists' debate has been rattled through enough already so I won't elaborate, but I was wondering if Elio and Linda are on the entire rest of the podcast or there is a timestamp that I can skip to where they have left and I won't risk ripping my own ears off.

1 hour 13 minutes.

I lol'ed! At work...

I think you're confused as to what torture porn is. The movie Hostel is torture porn (seeing people actually visibly tortured at length), Theon being strung along and then permanently cock blocked off camera isn't. As regards the scene, Ramsey is a sadist (nothing we as book readers aren't aware of) and Theon is his play thing. Theon being gelded( and effectively rendered incapable of siring heirs) is not unnecessary information, especially if the line of succession of Pike becomes a key storyline later on as the series progresses.



Firstly I think you need to get over your personal foibles and think a bit harder about the purpose and intent of a scene (what's the subtext? What are they trying to demonstrate about the character here?), secondly I think you need to understand the difference between nudity and hardcore sex.



LOST was a TV series alone. GOT is an adaptation of a book series, one assumes you have some interest in.

Even without showing these moments physically... they are graphic in nature. It becomes a bit sensationalized when you do these things. There is absolutely no point to them and they are only there to be a cheap thrill. In a show with so many true moments and great acting... A show that is based on high production values, set design, costumes. Adding things like this don't seem to be necessary. And in my opinion take away from the show. People are discussing this stuff. Rather than discussing the nuances of the show. They stick out. And they can turn off casual viewers.

The old canard that anyone who complains about some particular nudity is a prude is used only by the weakminded. People can like their salt and their sugar in different jars without being salt-prudes, after all.

For my own part, the show has an annoyingly softcore porn sensibility with its nudity that takes me out of enjoying the scenes as much as I might. It's distracting to notice the camera doing its gymnastics to avoid showing dick during a sex scene or sliding around to avoid Jaime Lannister's package while getting in the bath. It wouldn't bother me if they showed, frankly, anything, if it seemed organic to the story or was clearly there for titillation but was integrated more smoothly. Also distracting, every naked lady both being model-thin and conforming to early 21st century grooming standards.

I agree! More annoyingly, even as a mostly heterosexual male, is that the nudity is tilted heavily towards those who enjoy naked women. There is not an equivalent level of male nudity in any way shape or form, and that is particularly irritating. I don't give a shit about nudity, I do give a shit about sexist/heteronormative fanservice which denies that women and gay men make up a sizable portion of the fandom.

This is an HBO problem and not so much a Game of Thrones problem. If you look back at alot of their programming there is a bunch of nudity. So I don't think the gratuitous nudity is going away.

Where we can discuss GoT in comparison though is the occassions where it seems like they have taken it a step further than previous HBO programming.

Thank you. And as someone who identifies as a queer woman, seeing no naked men actually lessens my enjoyment of the naked ladies, because I then have to flip a table over the sexism of who's getting shown in the nude and why.