I don't have my books to hand as I'm in the office, but IIRC Book Mels reasons for wanting to sacrifice Edric were not to do with making shadow babies but bring dragons back to life or some such, where as in the TV series they've forgone that storyline (needless complexity for the viewers given the plan never reaches fruition) and followed through with producing more shadow babies angle (Ref: Mels conversation with Stannis when she leaves Dragonstone and how 'his fires burn low'). Seducing Gendry makes sense in that regard for TV Mel. As for how things played out, well the plan changed. Will write more later (deadlines).

I took about a week off this thread. As I felt the topic was pretty well agreed upon by most everyone. Really only one person has been championing the other side of the arguement... and the more people that it was gratuitous the more he seemed to fan the flames... in other words it almost felt like being trolled.

When MOST people here in the forum of APOIAF (home of dick jokes and base humor, not a crowd of prudes) feel that the nudity levels are gratuitous that says something. And even if you personally don't feel they are gratuitous... it should be clear that most people feel this way. And again coming from a crowd of people the don't have an issue by and large with Nudity/Sex... that says the show has probably gone over a line, it is being excessive. And that is an issue the show runners should realize is detracting from the product.

The idea is that not so much what myself or any one person believes... We all have different levels as to what is we feel is acceptable. No matter how hard someone argues for one side or another, this is not a topic where you are going to change a person's mind. It is personal taste.

you're right, I'm sorry.

Well said. The podcast crew itself is quite liberal too, I hope it is obvious that we are far from being prudes

Noone would think that . But in all fairness they seem to have toned it down significantly this year, since in épisodes 1-5 there's barely any nudity and the one we're getting is actually building up the characters (Jaime-Brienne, Jon Snow-Ygritte). And now they had 4 nude scenes in 2 episodes (2 of them sex scenes and 2 of them gratuitous) and all of a sudden it's worse than last year? I just don't get the complaint, as it seems to ignore the fact that we DID definitely see an improvement with season 3 in this department and that in all likelihood it's going to get better in that area in the future. I get that overall complaint that there's too much sex but I can definitely see that they do seem to mind criticisms of the show and actually act on it by improving the show.

I haven't gone through and done the numbers like you have so I'll take your word on it. It's hard to mentally balance things when this season is freshly in our mind. I agree those earlier scenes you mentioned used the nudity well Even if it is not as bad as past seasons, it's still worth pointing out if it starts to slide downhill again. It could be better than past seasons and still excessive fan service. It could be still miles ahead of the crap that has happened in the anime scene, but still be troublesome. It is not an all or nothing thing.

For the forums in general: It's not like D&D read these forums so their feelings are not going to get hurt. I suspect they have thick skins. What are forums are is a collection of podcast listeners freely expressing what they thought of the books and the show as individuals and roughly gauging how we feel about these things in our own little sub-community as a whole. We are free to disagree after all this discussion and that's fine. It's just important to keep in mind the nature of these forums, which are a reflection of the podcast, which in turn is a reflection, as I've said, of a group of friends having hearty discussions at a restaurant or around the campfire. In my personal experiences in those situations, we may have deep debates and disagree, but there is a certain level of respect inherently present in such situations.

I think what you wrote earlier on sums things up entirely tbh Beric: -



I think it's all very well for people to say they're not prudes, but given the exhortations that seem to rise whenever there's a flash of bare flesh it's hard to take that statement seriously. With regard to the oft quoted Neil Marshall interview. I recommend everyone actually listen to the audio: -

http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=34164

They get into the 'sexposition' thing (a bit of a misnomer as there's no actual sex in 'Blackwater' just nudity) around the 7+ minute mark. Now what's interesting isn't so much that he says he was encouraged to feature some nudity (that much is known) but that it was one of the producers informally doing so (the self confessed pervert side Vs the writers), it wasn't an actual official mandate as such. I kind of feel that information has been conveniently overlooked by some in their representations, in favour of broad brushing the entire production (if so where were the boob out Qarth dresses?). Hell for all anyone knows said producer might of in fact been George (the most ironic of Trolls if that was the case ). Personally I'd like to see where George stands on the shows nudity myself. AFAIK he's not said anything, but then I'm not on top of every interview he gives.

Also O/T come on Episode 9 already

So you're at your job and your boss goes up to you to talk about your current project. And he tells you that he wants you to do a certain thing related to the project. And you feel you have to go ahead and do that.

That's not an official mandate?

Yeah me too, this discussion is, sadly enough, not going anywhere.