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Episode 110: Second Sons 
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Holy shit, it's out already?! :o :D

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Tue May 21, 2013 12:16 am
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I still haven't even watched the TV episode. :(

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Tue May 21, 2013 1:01 am
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jesicka309 wrote:
I still haven't even watched the TV episode. :(


I normally do not see the series before listening - that is just normal for me :)

Now to the episode

First the circle jerk.
  • Thank you for the awesomely fast release. I think we listeners do often not appreciate that enough. Thanks again.
  • I think Amin and Ashley make up a great team. It is fun to listen - but why do you talk the episode again "scene-wise" not "arc-wise" - I found that better.
  • Great to hear Elio and Linda again. I think the whole "steal a shadow" thing could be onto something. Isn't Asshai by the shadow? And somewhere GRRM even mentiones shadowbinders if I recall correctly. Stealing a shadow does not sound far away. And it makes sense that she would need someone new - because Stannis' shadow is already used... I would bet on Mance - his shadow against his life sounds like a fair deal.
  • Thanks Amin. I have often said that without you the podcast would be dead by now. I really fear for its future if half of the crew stops podcasting. I would be sad.
  • Thanks Ashley - I see more and more that Mimi is casting a great shadow upon her other hosts, especially Ashley is profiting somehow because of Mimi's absence. Your contributions are great. Keep it up.

Now some nerdy critique
Why do you bother to call more than half of the episode "aftershow"? Especially if you talk about legit stuff regarding book AND show in it. Sorry to complain about such things - but you "close" the episode around 45min after start - 54min are labelled aftershow. That somehow is stupid. And in the aftershow you do not talk about random stuff as "aftershow" would imply but: the possible future of the podcast, some Q&A with Westeros and the iTunes review. All of that does not strike me as aftershow - it is valid discussion on books and show (and podcast) and should be seen as "show".

And some random idea
I have the feeling that the whole reread will be way too slow and bothersome somehow, especially if you reqally want to get to in-depth discussion on ADWD before TWOW (btw: My bet is Summer 2014). I have another idea for a format:
  • Let the forum-members somehow vote on the "highlight" chapters and review them as normal (these chapters would especially be interesting for guests as comicbookgirl and others). Of the top of my head these chapters could include: Red Wedding, Tyrion's trial, Cersei's walk of shame. But I think the community will surprise you and chapters like Jon's election, The Vipers first appearance, Sams journey with Aemon could make it.
  • The chapters in between you could summarize - or let them summarize by us listeners in short 3min clips.
Following this you have the "beefy" chapters for discussion (with guests?) and the others you do not miss.

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Tue May 21, 2013 5:57 am
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Good post Brynden :)

brynden wrote:


[*] I think Amin and Ashley make up a great team. It is fun to listen - but why do you talk the episode again "scene-wise" not "arc-wise" - I found that better.


I'm not sure if the explanation made the final edit, I think it is in there somewhere, but Ashley and I had only seen the episode once due to the quick record and didn't feel comfortable doing it arc by arc. Scene by scene is easier as it jogs the memory.
brynden wrote:


Now some nerdy critique
Why do you bother to call more than half of the episode "aftershow"? Especially if you talk about legit stuff regarding book AND show in it. Sorry to complain about such things - but you "close" the episode around 45min after start - 54min are labelled aftershow. That somehow is stupid. And in the aftershow you do not talk about random stuff as "aftershow" would imply but: the possible future of the podcast, some Q&A with Westeros and the iTunes review. All of that does not strike me as aftershow - it is valid discussion on books and show (and podcast) and should be seen as "show".


In retrospect, I should have moved the Elio and Linda thing to the end of the actual show, not just the start of the aftershow. It would have fit quite nicely and that's something I want people to listen to.

The rest is in the aftershow because I initially intended to do a short, rant/relaxed like aftershow based on that one question, but it went way longer than expected. It was faster to just keep everything in the aftershow for the same day release than to try and splice it back into the main show. And yes I did realize that the final product had an aftershow that was longer than the main show, but I found that funny, not stupid. Especially when I know you are handling the statistics, I like to throw you curve balls like this to make episodes stand out on your charts and graphs :twisted:

brynden wrote:


And some random idea
I have the feeling that the whole reread will be way too slow and bothersome somehow, especially if you reqally want to get to in-depth discussion on ADWD before TWOW (btw: My bet is Summer 2014). I have another idea for a format:
  • Let the forum-members somehow vote on the "highlight" chapters and review them as normal (these chapters would especially be interesting for guests as comicbookgirl and others). Of the top of my head these chapters could include: Red Wedding, Tyrion's trial, Cersei's walk of shame. But I think the community will surprise you and chapters like Jon's election, The Vipers first appearance, Sams journey with Aemon could make it.
  • The chapters in between you could summarize - or let them summarize by us listeners in short 3min clips.
Following this you have the "beefy" chapters for discussion (with guests?) and the others you do not miss.


I do think we need to give ADWD some more time at some point. Essos in particular and a couple episodes devoted to it. Not sure if we will change up the re-read though, that depends on how the other hosts feel too. I personally am not in a rush to get to the end of the re-read, I like our slow, in depth pace.


brynden wrote:

Thanks Ashley - I see more and more that Mimi is casting a great shadow upon her other hosts, especially Ashley is profiting somehow because of Mimi's absence. .


Is this the Mimi is a shadowbinder theory? :mrgreen:

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Tue May 21, 2013 8:33 am
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I do not keep track of the length of the aftershows - I'm not THAT nerdy. BUT I'm keeping track of other stuff and in the near future I have some quite interesting things to reveal...

It just hit me when listening and after 45min came the "end". The thing I found strange was the stuff you are talking in the "aftershow" - normally that is some "eating noises" or "call problems" or "random stuff". But here you put "content" in there and that I found stupid. Because you often refer to the aftershow as "and if you are not interested in random stuff, just don't listen" - here someone who follows this advice would have missed real interesting stuff. But as you explained very well: That issue is there because of the "speed editing" and that you are aware of it. So everything is fine. :)

And Mimi is a Shadowbinder for sure. She always mentiones that they should have casted Mel as Asian chick...

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Tue May 21, 2013 8:59 am
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Great episode! I loved the discussion in the after show with Elio and Linda. They always bring a unique perspective to the episode.

Amin I think you are rushing the what to do if the show passes the books conversation. It's still at least two years away. But then again it always helps to be prepared.

Glad our Canadian holiday helped get the episode out earlier!

Also totally agree that a dance with dragons reread or extra podcast is necessary after having so much more time to digest the books.

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Tue May 21, 2013 9:05 am
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Skywaltzer wrote:
Great episode! I loved the discussion in the after show with Elio and Linda. They always bring a unique perspective to the episode.

Amin I think you are rushing the what to do if the show passes the books conversation. It's still at least two years away. But then again it always helps to be prepared.

Glad our Canadian holiday helped get the episode out earlier!

Also totally agree that a dance with dragons reread or extra podcast is necessary after having so much more time to digest the books.

yeah I too would love taht. More discussion of Dance/Feast is always good.

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Tue May 21, 2013 9:23 am
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Personally I think that the chapter rereads generate enough tangents that they are compelling on their own without too specific/recent topics, but in the end its up to the crew to decide what they enjoy the most.

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Tue May 21, 2013 9:44 am
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Happy belated Victoria Day!

Thanks for the great episode and quick turnaround. I miss Kyle and Mimi's perspective but hard to complain about Linda & Elio as pinch hitters.

Especially love Elio's B5 reference and his "I don't care that you like mediocre things. That's your problem, not mine." quote.

I think once we get Daario interacting with Mormont/Selmy/Worm that they can grey up his motivations and character :fingerscrossed:

Happy to hear the growing consensus for an ADwD revisit!

brynden: Most Amin cursing in a single episode?
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ETA: A weekly crazy theory segment is fun.
Also if you could ask Elio next time he is on about the amount of information we can expect in The Worldbook regarding The War of the Ninepenny Kings.

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Tue May 21, 2013 11:25 am
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wow this was a good episode

* Great episode discussion . I didn't know the theory that Mel's leech ritual was fake. Then the observation that Dany is into badasses and thus will fall for victoran is a great insight.
* Glad to hear Elio and Linda's analysis of the episode, I hope you guys keep doing. If only Elio and Linda had a website/forums where i can go and read more of their thoughts.
* Then Ashley's rant about the article funny :D

This was a perfect podcast episode trail mix.

Here's my podcast Dr Who crossover.

Kyle's the Tardis
Mini is the companion and
Ashley and Amine are the Dr.

You just need 2 of the 3 components to make a good podcast ;). Or sometimes just having the Dr is enough.


Tue May 21, 2013 12:28 pm
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brynden wrote:
I have the feeling that the whole reread will be way too slow and bothersome somehow, especially if you reqally want to get to in-depth discussion on ADWD before TWOW (btw: My bet is Summer 2014). I have another idea for a format:
  • Let the forum-members somehow vote on the "highlight" chapters and review them as normal (these chapters would especially be interesting for guests as comicbookgirl and others). Of the top of my head these chapters could include: Red Wedding, Tyrion's trial, Cersei's walk of shame. But I think the community will surprise you and chapters like Jon's election, The Vipers first appearance, Sams journey with Aemon could make it.
  • The chapters in between you could summarize - or let them summarize by us listeners in short 3min clips.
Following this you have the "beefy" chapters for discussion (with guests?) and the others you do not miss.


I agree with Brynden, between the show, show reviews, Book 2 has been covered in depth. I would love it if you guys jumped to rereads of Book 4 and Book 5.


Tue May 21, 2013 12:36 pm
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Great discussion guys, although Elio and Linda come off as a bit arrogant to me, especially considering Linda is translating the show into Swedish and they are both helping George so I really don't think I can rely on their opinion on the show as totally unbiased. I'm also put off by the fact that they seemingly are never satisfied with anything they get on the show and whenever they talk about it they talk about the disappointments and that's getting old to me, considering that there are a lot of things to praise also. Maybe I just can't stand negativity.

That aside, great to get some deserved Amin rage :). I always like the discussions you guys have.

Regarding the fact that the show might catch up to the books, the next book is probably coming out before they adapt ADWD so on that front i'm not worried. I think we might get what the producers consider their own ending, since they have already said that with every season they will diverge more and more from the books so I'm not particularly worried, since I wouldn't know what new elements are later going to be included in the books or not until I read it and go "aaaahhh so that's what that was".
What they could do of course in the meantime would be to adapt Dunk and Egg.

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Tue May 21, 2013 2:22 pm
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First off, thanks Amin and Ashley for working on Victoria Day to get this out...not too many people would bypass a holiday to record a podcast for their fans...thank you as always!
Second, I really enjoyed the podcast except I missed Kyle...I think he does a fantastic job as "MC" of the episode recap shows. Plus I love his WTF moments and sexy time jokes...pretty hilarious.
Elio and Linda are such Debbie Downers! Seriously, I know they have mad skillz in Westeros theories but man, pony up the cash and make the show yourself if you dislike it that much! Seriously, I know they have huge George manwoodies but I do not think Martin has that big of a problem with HBO...that or he is a huge hypocrite for taking the cash and writing episodes.

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Tue May 21, 2013 5:47 pm
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Beric175 wrote:
Great discussion guys, although Elio and Linda come off as a bit arrogant to me, especially considering Linda is translating the show into Swedish and they are both helping George so I really don't think I can rely on their opinion on the show as totally unbiased. I'm also put off by the fact that they seemingly are never satisfied with anything they get on the show and whenever they talk about it they talk about the disappointments and that's getting old to me, considering that there are a lot of things to praise also. Maybe I just can't stand negativity.

Yeah, I appreciate Elio & Linda's book knowledge, and enjoy hearing Elio on episodes like Guy's Night Out. But when it comes to anything TV-related, they are nearly un-listenable. Besides sounding somewhat arrogant, and just generally negative, their opinion regarding the TV show seems increasingly irrelevant to me. It just feels like they still can't accept/adapt to the fact that the show has become a worldwide mainstream success, and that there are millions of fans out there who love the show but have never heard of westeros.org. I'm not even interested in their opinion anymore.


Tue May 21, 2013 6:49 pm
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Another awesome episode. I'm glad you guys are still able to make them, even if there is only 2 people. Bringing on the guest hosts like Elio and Linda was great. I so like to hear their opinions of how book deviations may reveal material from future books. There is a lot of discussion about what will happen when the show catches up to the series, but I'm more worried about the show lasting that long. I think they will definitely last through season 4, but to me the best material in the series was found in Storm of Swords. I know books 4 and 5 are all about setup for the next couple books, but do you think tv watchers can handle 2-3 seasons of setup with only a few major events before viewership falls off? Do you think they can handle another 3 seasons of Dany still not in Westeros before they give up on the show?

Also as a couple others have said, skipping ahead to do chapter rereads of 4 and 5 would be great since the show is covering book 3 right now.

Thanks again for a great cast!


Tue May 21, 2013 9:12 pm
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Regarding the nudity debate:

For me, it's really about the point of it all. I think that if they are going to insist upon so much female nudity in the show, then they should at least show comparable male nudity in terms of area shown, screen time, focus and composition of the shot, as well as primary identification of the camera. :D

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Tue May 21, 2013 9:21 pm
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Relistening the part with Westeros (I like how Elio sometimes hints to secret things).

I take two (for me) important things out of what Elio said:

  • He clearly says "[melisandre] really thinks that stannis is azor ahai reborn - the prince that was promised".
    I completely agree on his implicit point here that those two are equal. Only two different names for the same person. I often find it a too big stretch to separate those two and merge them with the 3-headed-dragon stuff. There is the one and the other - and they could very well be more or less separate. I really think that AA/PtwP IS one of thhe heads - but not all three are AA/PtwP. And if Aemon says it and Elio says it - it has to be that way.
  • I like the idea that Red Priests are resurrected "the right way" - I think that might fit well and I love that (for me) new and intriguing idea. But with his Thoros statement ("he is doing it different") he implicitly says that Thoros is not a "real" Red Priest. That is strange - as far as the books go - the readers always learn that he is very well a Red Priest. If he is not a Red Priest (we also do not know if he was a slave like all other Red Priests) - what else is he and why is he in Westeros - and what is his agenda??

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Wed May 22, 2013 1:10 am
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Alias wrote:
Personally I think that the chapter rereads generate enough tangents that they are compelling on their own without too specific/recent topics, but in the end its up to the crew to decide what they enjoy the most.

I agree. Also, I love having Elio and Linda on! Regardless of subject matter, it's always fun to hear different opinions. This was a really enjoyable episode for me!

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Wed May 22, 2013 11:27 am
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Really enjoyed this! I think my favourite bit was Amin raging about how terrible iTunes is, as well as Ashley raging about that article - I too am a girl and like 'nerdy' things and I especially hate when other women do the whole 'oh my god it's all just too complicated for our tiny female brains' gahh!!! Hope Mimi is back to nerd rage about episode 9! I like Elio and Linda but I disagree that they've made Tyrion a 'saint' - sure he's a bit nicer than in the books, but I think they actually did a good job in the last episode of showing him being drunken and horrible - he definitely isn't a straight up knight in shining armour for Sansa or anything! I am pretty relieved that they didn't do the 'consummation' scene like in the book for some pretty obvious reasons - the age of the actors involved being one of them.

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Wed May 22, 2013 11:46 am
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Quote:
Elio and Linda are such Debbie Downers! Seriously, I know they have mad skillz in Westeros theories but man, pony up the cash and make the show yourself if you dislike it that much! Seriously, I know they have huge George manwoodies but I do not think Martin has that big of a problem with HBO...that or he is a huge hypocrite for taking the cash and writing episodes.


I love having Elio and Linda on, because the cross-cultural nerd rage is like delicious barbecue sauce to the fandom. I don't want all commentary I hear about Game of Thrones to be from that perspective, but I want it spread on top sometimes. Delicious.

I don't think you should imagine that Martin's endorsement of Elio and Linda as Song of Ice and Fire loremasters means he agrees with their interpretation of the TV show or doesn't. I don't know what Martin really thinks of the show, but if he had a problem with Elio and Linda nitpicking it on the Internet, I bet he'd know how to handle that.

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Wed May 22, 2013 12:04 pm
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aryastark7330 wrote:
Really enjoyed this! I think my favourite bit was Amin raging about how terrible iTunes is, as well as Ashley raging about that article - I too am a girl and like 'nerdy' things and I especially hate when other women do the whole 'oh my god it's all just too complicated for our tiny female brains' gahh!!! Hope Mimi is back to nerd rage about episode 9! I like Elio and Linda but I disagree that they've made Tyrion a 'saint' - sure he's a bit nicer than in the books, but I think they actually did a good job in the last episode of showing him being drunken and horrible - he definitely isn't a straight up knight in shining armour for Sansa or anything! I am pretty relieved that they didn't do the 'consummation' scene like in the book for some pretty obvious reasons - the age of the actors involved being one of them.

wait, what are you talking about? The marriage is never consummated in the books!

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Wed May 22, 2013 12:21 pm
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No but they do get undressed and it goes further than what they did on the tv show is what I meant!

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Wed May 22, 2013 12:47 pm
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aryastark7330 wrote:
No but they do get undressed and it goes further than what they did on the tv show is what I meant!

Oh fair enough.
Also, I finished this episode and y'all talked about the Red Priests as fire others theory! Here's my thoughts, like priests of the drowned god the big priests die and are brought back through fire, they're dead but it's immediate so they're also not screwed over like Stoneheart or Beric. Thoros is different, I think he was a shitty priest and they sent him to Westeros because why not and he was never fire baptised, which is why he's not as powerful, competent as Moqorro or Mel. OTOH, it might explain his fearlessness if he's already died, he was first over the wall of Pyke. Moral of the story is that they're dead and now alive, they accidentally create wights when the ceremony isn't done proper. It all makes sense!
Edit: WAIT YOU PLAYED MAGIC ASHLEY!!!! MTG BOK EPISODE!!!!

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Wed May 22, 2013 1:11 pm
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Great discussion - thanks Amin and Ashley for getting this turned around so fast and giving us your insights. Laughed out loud at the "Ned warged into Sansa's doll" comment!

LordManderBlee wrote:
Also, I love having Elio and Linda on! Regardless of subject matter, it's always fun to hear different opinions. This was a really enjoyable episode for me!


Me too!


Wed May 22, 2013 1:15 pm
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Great show!

Amin,
just a quick tip.... check out this software.

http://download.cnet.com/iTuneCommentReader/3000-18551_4-75764839.html?tag=mncol;8

It will allow you to view ALL ITUNES COMMENTS AT ONCE!!! from all 155 countries!

I think the website appcomments.com will do the same but it's been down for a while.


Wed May 22, 2013 1:51 pm
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Quote:
I like Elio and Linda but I disagree that they've made Tyrion a 'saint' - sure he's a bit nicer than in the books, but I think they actually did a good job in the last episode of showing him being drunken and horrible - he definitely isn't a straight up knight in shining armour for Sansa or anything! I am pretty relieved that they didn't do the 'consummation' scene like in the book for some pretty obvious reasons - the age of the actors involved being one of them.


I think one big place they softened Tyrion is that he hasn't had any attempted blackmailers murdered in cold blood and put in a soup to keep Shae a secret.

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Wed May 22, 2013 2:23 pm
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MeadMaker wrote:
Great show!

Amin,
just a quick tip.... check out this software.

http://download.cnet.com/iTuneCommentReader/3000-18551_4-75764839.html?tag=mncol;8

It will allow you to view ALL ITUNES COMMENTS AT ONCE!!! from all 155 countries!

I think the website appcomments.com will do the same but it's been down for a while.


Thanks. Interface kid of sucks but at least you can copy and paste. Stuck using the shareware form right now because I'm not spending $20 on this, lol.

Oh and Fuck Cnet too. Tried to install waves on spamware on my comp while I downloaded this thing.


Bertuzzipunch wrote:
Mimi is hot, i want her. Love this podcast. Send nudes.


One of the latest reviews :|

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Wed May 22, 2013 2:29 pm
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FTWard wrote:
Especially love Elio's B5 reference quote.


I invited Elio to a BOK episode for something sci-fi. Not sure if it fits his schedule though.

FTWard wrote:
Happy to hear the growing consensus for an ADwD revisit!


Yeah, ADWD is starting to become more interesting with my re-read. (Doing the same thing I did with AFFC, I'm jumping around and reading random chapters and taking notes).

FTWard wrote:
brynden: Most Amin cursing in a single episode?
Image


Probably. Kissed by Fire makes life more on the edge.

FTWard wrote:
ETA: A weekly crazy theory segment is fun.
Also if you could ask Elio next time he is on about the amount of information we can expect in The Worldbook regarding The War of the Ninepenny Kings.


Will have to add that to the list.

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Wed May 22, 2013 2:38 pm
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brynden wrote:
And Mimi is a Shadowbinder for sure. She always mentiones that they should have casted Mel as Asian chick...


Kind of matches her portrait here. Azad (the artist) was onto something :ugeek:
http://www.podcastoficeandfire.com/wp-c ... ndfire.jpg

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Wed May 22, 2013 2:41 pm
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witless chum wrote:
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I like Elio and Linda but I disagree that they've made Tyrion a 'saint' - sure he's a bit nicer than in the books, but I think they actually did a good job in the last episode of showing him being drunken and horrible - he definitely isn't a straight up knight in shining armour for Sansa or anything! I am pretty relieved that they didn't do the 'consummation' scene like in the book for some pretty obvious reasons - the age of the actors involved being one of them.


I think one big place they softened Tyrion is that he hasn't had any attempted blackmailers murdered in cold blood and put in a soup to keep Shae a secret.


I'm with Elio and Linda - talk to any show only fan, and they think Tyrion is the main character. He is the good guy. He can do no wrong. I recently went on a different podcast with a couple of show only viewers, and after about half an hour of them going on about how wonderful Tyrion was, I wanted to slap them. They were also all about the nudity, and didn't care how gratuitous it was. In short, their opinions reflected the worst criticisms of show only viewers - they are the reason Tyrion has been made into a straight up good good, and the reason HBO execs are jamming the eps full of nudity (and now, torture porn ugh).

There's still time for Tyrion to do the soup thing. In fact, that would be a great arc to follow now, as the stake are higher as Sansa like Shae, so both Tyrion and Shae have a great reason to hide their relationship from Sansa a well as Tywin.

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