A Podcast Of Ice and Fire
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Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
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Author:  sillent [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
For the latest episode discussion! Watching it now, so will edit my post with comments after!

----

1) Completely agree that the resolution for Daario+Jorah+GW vs the second wave of reinforcements was a bit meh. I think its not certain about how they went about solving that -- looks like they just hung a lantern over it. Kind of a weak point.
2) Strangely, I hadn't thought about it -- but I have to agree with Amin that sending 2-3 people to sneak up on the horses to assassinate the guy would be better than charging with 30 people. Its also what the Halfhand & co. did when raiding the wildling people on the hill last season (smarter decision imo).
3) I think if Jon doesn't reflect upon the wolves helping him out -- it'll be super weird. Also, from the way they shot that scene, it looked like after the fight it was Jon + direwolves (+ potentially even Osha and Meera) against Tormund and Ygritte (and technically maybe Ygritte would've sided with him) so I thought it was very weird that he just bolted especially since his half brothers could've been there since the wolves were helping him. I realize there were probably more men there, but the way they shot it didn't put that across, and so another plot hole imo.
4) Agree about Arya turning assassin and RW being the catalyst that turns her over to the dark side.

Afterthoughts:
No letter -- and I'll tell you my problem with that: Blackfish never died, if he wasn't supposed to fill the shoes of Greatjon or whatever they could've just handed him the will (and if need be he could've given it to some other dude before holding Riverrun). And I think the lack of table flipping to save Robb was slightly disappointing. Not to mention Roose Bolton stabbing him was very subpar.
Author:  Bina007 [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Jorah is better looking than sleazy Daario. It is known.
Author:  gsdg [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Daario looks like a rip-off of Fabio. I'm kinda into it, tbh. :feathered:
Author:  aryastark7330 [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
In the books Jorah was super creepy, but in the show I am 100% team Jorah! Come on Dany what does a guy have to do?
Author:  Beric175 [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Great episode guys; Would have loved to hear Ashley's and Mimi's reactions to the episode but i'm sure there'll be time for that in the future.

Now I think the way the wedding went down was intentionally made to be more like a slaughter and less of a fight because the way you could interpret the Red Wedding in the books now I never made a big deal out of the bannermen trying to defend Robb but the way the show set it up made me think. Robb and Greywind are both in a "cage" of some sort and both are killed with arrows, which is why we don't get a Greywind attack. it was meant to mirror Robb's death and establish a last deep connection with the direwolf. Robb warging felt a bit of a stretch to me in the books, only because I don't want every character to suddenly have supernatural powers; bran is fine because it's been built up sincethe beginning but Robb suddenly getting the same powers and Jon as well? I didn't like the development at the end of ADWD because of that, as i felt this was a great death for a great character and it would feel cheap to just let him live in one forom or another after that....but enough of my rambling about skinchanging. back to my rambling about the Red Wedding. the change iof development is purposely/intentionally done because in the end itspeaks much more to the hopelessness of the scene. They took a different path and showed us that a different interpretation of the events was possible without changing the essence of its meaning and I admire that because it frees the show from the shackles of having to stick too close to the source material; Now they can approach more iconic moments of the books that keep the meaning of those moments but change the way they are going down so that's why i gave it 5 LC. It feels also that with the death of Robb's wife they are taking more stances on certain theories, which they did previously with Ramsay castrating Theon, so it feels like they are now slowly getting more confident in their adaptations and becoming much more of a part of the fandom because you always have people disagreeing on these things and the producers are no different in that regard I would say.
Author:  Beric175 [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
I thought Tormund and Ygritte were not necessarily related but since him and Jon have been growing closer over the last few episodes maybe he realized how important she was to Jon and tried to protect her from getting killed in the fight for Jon, as a true friend would.
Author:  brynden [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Robb is having quite a bond to his wolf in the books (passage through the Golden Tooth, the fighting side-by-side). So it is not so much a stretch per se. BUT I still do not like it in terms of that every warg HAS to do that.

I'm still only halfway through the ep - but until now it is great. Sadly Mimi and Ashley are missing, but the guys are doing a fantastic job so far.
Author:  FTWard [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Beric175 wrote:
Great episode guys; Would have loved to hear Ashley's and Mimi's reactions to the episode but i'm sure there'll be time for that in the future.




Very much agree. I hope we get a Girl's Night In on S3E09.
Author:  Queensmoot [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
People don't want to hear from Elio? I adore Elio!

I tend towards the show-apologist side. I mostly enjoy the show, even though I flip a table periodically (cough : HALFHAND : cough), but I love hearing Mimi or Ashley or Elio give their perspective, even when I don't agree. I don't even mind Larry, if he isn't constantly interrupting Ashley.

I'd love to hear any perspective on the show that you guys would like to provide us. Thanks for taking the time each week to give us such a great podcast!

/sap

PS: Show Jorah over Show Daario any day of the week!
Author:  sillent [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
please no Larry -- its clear he doesn't even like the show anymore, he just reviews it because he gets viewers/subscribers out of it.
Author:  fortytwo [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
OMG Amin, thnx for VoK plug. I was so psyched to hear the chipmunk star trek vok intro.

I should have mentioned it sooner, majority of VoK downloads are coming from twitter and its all has to be because of @JavadiAmin and @apoiaf tweets.
Author:  LordManderBlee [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
fortytwo wrote:
OMG Amin, thnx for VoK plug. I was so psyched to hear the chipmunk star trek vok intro.

I should have mentioned it sooner, majority of VoK downloads are coming from twitter and its all has to be because of @JavadiAmin and @apoiaf tweets.

w00t!
Author:  kingthlayer [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
The Pink Walder Theory is my favorite thing in the universe. Especially with Bloodraven watching. Hope he shields Bran's eyes.
Author:  fortytwo [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
I think Ygritte and Tormand theory isn't too far off. At some point Jon asks why Ygritte didn't hook up with one of Tormand's sons. She says they were from the same village , and it would be same as sleeping with her brother.
Author:  easttexasdirewolf [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Haven't finished the podcast yet but I had a few comments.

About the Wildlings attacking the guy in the house, instead of asking why attack with all your guys I would ask why leave anyone behind in the attack? It looked like the guy's house was in the direction they were going. Why say, "OK you guys stay here and catch up in a few minutes."? They are veteran raiders and know how to be quiet. Jon is the only reason the attack didn't work.

I agree that the sacking of Yunkai was a little wonky but I think the implication was that Dany's plan was for the slaves of the ruler of the city who came to see her in the previous episode to spread the word around that the slaves would be freed if the city was sacked and that is why the slaves revolted and why the attack was a success. They didn't expain exactly how it happened very well though. I assumed the second wave of slave soldiers didn't attack Jorah, Daario, and Grey Worm.
Author:  LordManderBlee [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Also, just wanted to say that I love episodes with listener participation! Long aftershows filled with guesthosts and surprised forum members are the best :)
Author:  Jeremy [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
- Stupid question. Where are the Elio reviews that people love/hate? Are they the same as the Westeros.org YouTube videos?
- I vote Grey Worm for best fighter. Fighting is ALL he does.
- I'm with Amin. The wildlings should have surrounded the horse trader's house before advancing. I think the horse got wounded/maimed in their pursuit of the horse trader, so they put it out of its misery. And I could so see the TV show making Tormund related to Ygritte.
- Orell seemed to me like he was making a conscious choice to warg into the bird right before he died.
- Maisie Williams continues to kill it as Arya.
- Non readers had it a little bit easier with the RW. Book readers had to stomach it all AND wonder if Arya survived. There was really no way for the show to leave that hanging. I remember reading it for the first time and thinking, "Oh, god, I HOPE he used the flat side of the axe," but it being The Hound, I wasn't sure.
- I hate the Robb-warging-into-Grey Wind theory.
- The Blackfish scoffing at the Frey women? To me, he looked terrified. :)
- Pink Walder! LOL.
- I still don't think Talisa was a spy. For the show, they needed a love interest for Robb to betray the Freys. Instead of going the Westerling route, they went with a confirmed pregnancy and then killed the wife and child off so they didn't have to "come up" with a continuing storyline for Talisa.
- Heir to the North theory is still in play for the books, IMHO. I feel like the show and the books are diverging more and more as the show goes along. Besides, wouldn't it be like GRRM to write some things differently than what the TV adaptation reveals?
- RIP Dacey Mormont - a minor character in the book that I liked but didn't make it into the show.
- Michelle Fairley nailed it.
- I loved the screen going black and the silence during the credits.
Author:  easttexasdirewolf [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Speaking only about the TV show...I think Grey Worm will eventually be a better fighter than Jorah or Daario, but he lacks practical experience right now. This is speculation on my part, but it seems that Grey Worm is pretty young and hasn't fought in any real wars yet, though he has had the best training. Jorah and Daario are very evenly matched right now. It is the classic young lion vs. old lion with these two. Daario is seasoned but doesn't have quite as much experience as Jorah but Daario is in his prime physically. I would order the four starting with the best warrior...Barristan, Jorah/Daario (too close to call, depends on the circumstances of the fight, i.e. is Jorah fulled rested and armored, etc.), Grey Worm. Give Grey Worm a few years and a few wars and he will pass the other three but I don't think Grey Worm even in his prime could take Barristan in his prime.
Author:  Red Viper [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
I agree with Ashley's theory: there was some tension between Catelyn and Lord Bolton. Sure he married the Frey girl for her weight in gold, but he'd love to give her a feathered hat :twisted:

Loved the acting in the Red Wedding, Michelle Fairley, David Bradley and Michael McElhatton nailed it!

I love it that the Boltons both in the show and in the books creep me out.

Thanks for the episode guys!
Author:  ShadowStalker [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Regarding how Daario-Jorah-Grey Worms surviving:

I really hope that it wasn't because they fought their way to the gates. I don't think it was. But if it was, then that is really over the top.

The way I interpretted the scene was that after that big fight scene the 2nd wave of attackers changed sides. They are slave soldiers afterall. And word of what Dany has done in Astapor has to have reached their ears by now. So it is just the sort of thing that would help start a slave revolt.

Also from my interpretation... that Dany's Unsullied and the Second Sons did not engage in the sack of Yunkai. It was all of the slave revolt. Which is why she was getting anxious in that scene... because she was waiting for them to come back and have the gates opened so her force could sack the city and free the slaves.

This is really the only plausible explanation in my mind that isn't completely asinine.

I hope this is explained better and is reinforced on the show. I feel at times the show glosses over some of these points. Like the reasoning of why Catelyn let Jaime go in S2. (because if she didn't the drunk Karstark men were going to kill him). It was a good reason... but it was only brought up once and then seemingly forgotten. And even now in reviews I read, people call letting Jaime go a stupid mistake she made...
Author:  LordManderBlee [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
If it's over a woman, Jorah. If it's a melee, Daario. Duels are non lady fights, Barristan every time. Grey Worm is a soldier, not a warrior or duelist. And he's not even the best fighter in the unsullied! He's the best leader. Honestly I think Barristan/Jorah/Daario would fuck up any one unsullied with no problem, the point is the army and the discipline.
Author:  Nilan [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
It's between Grey Worm and Barristan.

I justify it like this: training.

Barristan has had some of the best training in the world and spent his life fighting against the best swordsmen in Westeros. Jorah is simply a perhaps above-average Westerosi nobleman. Daario is an experienced sellsword, but only within the context of his mercenary company.

Meanwhile, Grey Worm, as a slave, spends his entire LIFE in training. The quality of that training is of a certain calibre, and while he's not learned as many tricks as Barristan, he would be in peak physical form and works ceaselessly to be what he is. At some point that training is going to involve fighting one-on-one. It's just the basic form of fighting.

So, while Barristan has better training, Grey Worm is ALWAYS training. Daario and Jorah take extended breaks -- otherwise known as having an actual life.
Author:  Pod's Plight [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Kristofer Hivju (34) is only 8 years older that Rose Leslie (26). I would be on board for big brother, or maybe cousin, but not father.
Author:  Amin [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Pod's Plight wrote:
Kristofer Hivju (34) is only 8 years older that Rose Leslie (26). I would be on board for big brother, or maybe cousin, but not father.


It's not how old they are, it's how old they look and what age they are supposed to be playing. He looks old enough to be it given Tormund's young age actions :feathered: but regardless yeah that would still fit some sort of blood relation.

Some statistics on episode 111 downloads. In the past 23 hours since release, there has been 450 manual downloads off the website. Majority of users use Chrome, then Safari and Firefox with close numbers, with IE trailing quite a bit. ~200 from US, 50 from Canada, 14 from Brazil, 28 UK, 22 Germany, 7 Finland, 10 Australia and a few others.
Author:  fortytwo [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
http://goo.gl/#analytics/goo.gl/sKEs0/all_time

Too bad we can't use goo.gl in itunes feed :(
Author:  Kyle [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Amin wrote:
Pod's Plight wrote:
Kristofer Hivju (34) is only 8 years older that Rose Leslie (26). I would be on board for big brother, or maybe cousin, but not father.


It's not how old they are, it's how old they look and what age they are supposed to be playing.


If your current profession doesn't work out Amin you can easily make it as a Hollywood agent.
Author:  Amin [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Kyle wrote:
Amin wrote:
Pod's Plight wrote:
Kristofer Hivju (34) is only 8 years older that Rose Leslie (26). I would be on board for big brother, or maybe cousin, but not father.


It's not how old they are, it's how old they look and what age they are supposed to be playing.


If your current profession doesn't work out Amin you can easily make it as a Hollywood agent.


Who says I'm not involved with Hollywood in some way or another? :ugeek:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2005
Author:  jesicka309 [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Amin wrote:

Some statistics on episode 111 downloads. In the past 23 hours since release, there has been 450 manual downloads off the website. Majority of users use Chrome, then Safari and Firefox with close numbers, with IE trailing quite a bit. ~200 from US, 50 from Canada, 14 from Brazil, 28 UK, 22 Germany, 7 Finland, 10 Australia and a few others.


I download from iTunes these days....but I'll reiterate what I always say:

I SEE YOU 10 AUSTRALIANS. Come and talk to me!! :( Puhhhleaaaaaseeee.

I want to have my own fan meet up. So jealous of the US an UK peeps.
Author:  Mordion [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
Jeremy wrote:
Where are the Elio reviews that people love/hate? Are they the same as the Westeros.org YouTube videos?

http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/Entry/The_Rains_of_Castamere/Book_Spoilers/#Analysis
Author:  brynden [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 111: The Rains of Castamere
So I come back for just a few small thoughts:

1) I do not understand why the people are nitpicking about Jaehearys I - in terms of "if there is only one, the 1st is useless". When there is also no Robert II, but:
AGOT - Bran I wrote:
“In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, by the word of Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, I do sentence you to die.”


2) I have not seen the episode - but following your comments: The show is particularly doing not a good job in showing (or explaining) how cities/castles are taken (WInterfell S2, Yunkai S3). I totally understand that they lack the budget for sieges - but there could be an explanation like some guy walking in an telling "After we fought the guards at the gate and opened it the UNsullied and my sellswords took the city easily" - OR introduce Strong Belwas (or another champion) and make some duel-style combat for the city.

3) I think Amin is forcing the generation of new crackpot-theories/pairing (he is concentrating on pairings of late - like Jorah/Barristan in this one) too much . I have the feeling that some of the podcasts best theories were not "made up" by one of the hosts but evolved out of the discussion.

4) After the season: Guys Night Out 5??

5) Thanks to the guests to join in!
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