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New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion 
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house manwoody
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What if Catelyn wasn't tricked by the obvious dagger and doesn't take Tyrion? My take is that Ned doesn't get injured, no milk of the poppy, Jory is alive, and everything slows way down. It doesn't necessarily mean that the end result is much different, but it could be very different. Oh yeah, Robert doesn't go hunting right then either because he isn't trying to make peace with Ned and Cersei.

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Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:48 am
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Its been a while since I read GOT but I would think that Robert still goes hunting. It seems to be his MO. Ned would just be lucid during the aftermath of the hunt.

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Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:48 am
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house manwoody
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Robert was frustrated with the situation. Jaime just killed Ned's men and injured Ned badly. Robert went hunting to escape the situation. You may be right but, I think Cat escalated the situation and forced the Lannisters to action. If this is correct, Catelyn was more to blame for the Stark's situation than anyone.

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Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:17 am
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wheredowhoresgo wrote:
Robert was frustrated with the situation. Jaime just killed Ned's men and injured Ned badly. Robert went hunting to escape the situation. You may be right but, I think Cat escalated the situation and forced the Lannisters to action. If this is correct, Catelyn was more to blame for the Stark's situation than anyone.


I understand she is reacting to an attack on one of her children and her actions are realistic and defensible but I have always thought that Catelyn was responsible for the downward spiral that occurred to the Starks. Had she kept her cool (hard to do I know!) and not have taken Tyrion prisoner and then to the Vale a good deal would have changed.

Ned would have still discovered the truth about Joff/Myrc/Tomm but could have operated at a stronger position if Catelyn had not placed the Lannisters in such a bad position.

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Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:02 am
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house manwoody
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Yeah that is what I see. It always felt forced to me anyway. Ned was playing with a stacked deck. His wife causes major problems, his daughter rats him out to Cersei and Robert abandons him and goes hunting to his demise. Poor Ned, most people now say he was stupid in the game and don't consider how he was handicapped by his family and best friend.

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Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:40 am
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wheredowhoresgo wrote:
Yeah that is what I see. It always felt forced to me anyway. Ned was playing with a stacked deck. His wife causes major problems, his daughter rats him out to Cersei and Robert abandons him and goes hunting to his demise. Poor Ned, most people now say he was stupid in the game and don't consider how he was handicapped by his family and best friend.


I don't blame Sansa. She does rat him out to Cersei but has good intentions and is also still a novice at the Game (I won't say child because the children in ASOIAF all seem much more mature than contemporary children).

Catelyn though should have known better. With Robb she puts off this vibe that she is such a strategic thinker but in that pub she let her emotions get away with her (As a father I completely understand but as a former Naval officer I also understand that sometimes you have to put your familial emotions away when you are dealing with other people's lives).

I never truly understood the Robert and Ned relationship. They seemed to have been good friends when they were younger and had some shared defining moments but at Winterfell and in Kings Landing you could tell that friendship was over in all but name. From stepping out of his carriage in Winterfell I could not understand why Ned would trust Robert at all and why he treated him as anything but a friendly overlord.

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Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:16 am
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I know I planned to do another one of these at some point, but that may not be for quite some time. I think Vassals of Kingsgrave was thinking about doing a what-if episode as well. I know I would enjoy listening to it, whether with the current group of VOK hosts or new people.

Here is a copy from the google doc file we were looking at during the podcast - as you can see there were a lot left untouched and even if you wanted to repeat any done that's fine:

Spoiler: show
To start with, I thought I’d just lay out some things to think about in terms of alternate history:
- Points of Divergence - you need to think carefully about what event you’re changing, because the events before that will structure the environment and historical forces that will shape your PoD. And in general, it’s a good idea to try to stick to one PoD so that the effects of the change can be considered in isolation.
- Historical Forces vs. Contingency and Agency - this goes to a philosophical tension within the discipline of history. Historians acknowledge that long-term forces (economics, society, culture, religion, demographics, climate, etc.) have a huge influence on the course of events, but at the same time, it’s equally clear that both individuals and groups have agency in history rather than being the mere puppets of social forces, and do things that overturn historical forces or create brand new ones. It’s especially important to look for contingent events or phenomena (they make good PoD) - if Bran decides to climb a different tower that day, well... [so you mean the great man theory of history vs the counter argument to that? yah, sort of. but it goes beyond that; it’s more an argument against the “longue duree” camp and a particular camp of materialist Marxist historians about whether you can just base everything off of long-term trends]
t- The Butterfly Effect - small things can have a huge effect on the course of events, over time, so a change to the past should have cascading effects in the future. One of the big sins of alternate history is to make a change and then try to shoehorn in events from the original timeline even though the change may mean they never happen. If Rhaegar overthrows his father at the Tourney of Harrenhal, we shouldn’t assume that Balon Greyjoy is going to attack the North in 299 AL just because it happened in the books.

[That’s true and worth mentioning at the start, though at times we may have to minimize the effect for our calculations because 1) we don’t know exactly how it would work, because we inherently can’t 2) we could say that about almost any change and would just keep saying it every time with every what if]

--Another thing to add is is author’s intentions. Sometimes the author just needed something to happen a certain way for his/her overall story plan. Because the book has a known“God” (author) whereas history is agnostic. Again something we will have to ignore because we don’t care about the author’s intention here, so we are in a way treating the book like history (without a god/author) to do a proper what if episode and enjoy doing it.

[Agreed, which is why I like to talk about GRRM as the gods in a Greek tragedy; things will go just enough wrong or right in order for what he wants to happen to happen. Which in turn helps us to understand where the key turning points are]

In a Setting like ASOIAF, where personal relations drive everything, persons are important for counterfactuals. For the outbreak of the Industrial Revolution, on the other hand, they get pretty meaningless. It depends mainly on the level - the more macro you go, the less important persons become. Since the story is pretty micro, taking place in only two or three years, the structures aren’t that important.




So here’s a preliminary list of the biggest or more interesting what ifs in the books:

AGOT:
- Bran doesn’t get thrown from the tower/picks another tower to climb?
- Catelyn hadn’t gone to King’s Landing and had sent someone else instead?
- Catelyn or Eddard had visited Dragonstone, as both planned to do at various points (her on the way to KL, him after resigning)?
- Eddard checked out Littlefinger’s story about the dagger, or just asked Renly, etc?
- Catelyn and Tyrion at the Inn - what if they’d never met, what if they’d met at Moat Cailin, what if she’d gone west to Riverrun or north to Winterfell instead of to the Eyrie?
- Eddard hadn’t stopped to talk to LF after resigning? [yes --related question, Eddard leaves to rally the men rather than make a play at King’s Landing -- related to that, eddard sends the girls away before making his move]
- Tyrion doesn’t make it to the Lannister camp (either b/c of the duel, the mountain clans, etc.)?
- Eddard hadn’t gotten injured in the fight outside the brothel?
- Robert hadn’t gone hunting or just didn’t encounter the boar?
- Eddard keeps his yap shut instead of talking to Cersei, or has her arrested in the godswood?
- Ned takes up either Renly or LF’s offer?
- Catelyn had negotiated for something other than Robb’s hand? Robb had gotten married on the spot?
- Robb decides to go after Tywin rather than Jaime?
- Robb gives command of his foot to someone other than Roose Bolton (Greatjon or Galbart Glover or Robett Glover, etc.) I want that!
- Eddard isn’t executed? // What if Eddard was sent to the wall as planned?
--What if jumped into the crowd (crowd surfing)
- Robb declares for either Renly or Stannis?
- The Lannister’s call for allegiance is answered? I want to write an article about this for some time now: at the end of AGOT, the Lannisters send a swarm of ravens demanding allegiance from Renly, Stannis, Highgarden, Pyke, etc. None of which is answered. But what if it had?



ACOK:
- Robb doesn’t send Theon to the Iron Islands?
--What if Catelyn had been in Winterfell when Theon went there (Feathered Hat Theory) 1) Maybe prevent the loss with more men kept there 2)Hostage or Marriage (theon, victarion)?[that’s a good one]
- Tyrion had swapped the different offers from the “one, two, three”?
- Renly and Catelyn had sealed an alliance prior to his murder?
- Stannis attacked King’s Landing first before Storm’s End? (while the chain and WF not ready)
- Theon doesn’t take Winterfell (either b/c he sticks to the plan or Rodrick doesn’t send all the Winterfell guard to Torrhen’s Square)?
- Arya names someone different?
- The riot after Myrcella’s send-off goes even worse?
- Stannis gets to KL earlier (doesn’t stay to take Storm’s End)?
- Edmure fails to prevent Tywin crossing the Red Fork? or delays him for just long enough that Tywin doesn’t make the rendevous at Tumbler’s Falls, or in time to get to KL before Stannis can breach the walls?
- Arya reveals herself to the Northmen when she helps them seize Harrenhal?
- Catelyn either doesn’t let Jaime go or does a proper exchange of hostages?
- Ser Mandon Moore kills Tyrion/Tyrion dies of his wounds?
- Sansa leaves KL with the Hand?

ASOS:
What if Oberyn won the duel?

Pregame of thrones: What if Rhaegar got away from the Trident [ 2 scenarios: Draw and retreat, loss but Rhaegar gets away with a few men] And what if the battle went the other way? (arthur dayne at the trident)

----------------------------------------------
Marriage parings, what would have happened?

Ned and Cersei [aching loins]

Robb x Asha

Roose x Catelyn after Ned’s death

Walder Frey x Catelyn

Stannis and Cersei [goes to bed like the battlefield]

Jaime and Lysa

Jaime and Cersei

Blackfish x Loras

Catelyn and Brandon

Littlefinger and Lysa (back then)

Littlefinger and Catelyn (impact on the realm)
Viserys and Arriane

Theon x Catelyn


------------------------

ADWD ones from the forum:

What if Tyrion had not convinced Aegon to go west?
What if Jon had fought Tormund Giantsbane?
What if the Shavepate/Greyworm/Barristan catched the red flux?
What if Stannis would not have freed Deepwood Motte but went straight to Winterfell after convincing the clans?
What if somebody had revealed that Fake-Arya is fake?
What if Walder Frey died before the wedding in Winterfell?
What if the Iron Throne did not believe Manderly?
What if Jon had not ordered all of his loyalists to go away?
What if Quentyn had not decided that he need to steal a dragon (or his friends stopped him)?
What if Tyrion had managed to meet Dany and finally seen a dragon?

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Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:51 am
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We really should do one of these for vok. Though we probably won't be able to reach the epic proportions of nerdiness achieved in the most recent what if episode.


Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:44 am
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house stark
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Nadia wrote:
We really should do one of these for vok. Though we probably won't be able to reach the epic proportions of nerdiness achieved in the most recent what if episode.


That would be very difficult!

On the Catelyn question this is quite possibly my shocking lack of knowledge / impulse to defend Catelyn but I don't know that it would have changed that much - Ned would still have told Cersei what he knew like an idiot. I can't remember exactly why Robert decided to go hunting but wouldn't that have been planned somewhat in advance? I'm not sure it was simply a reaction to the situation with Ned and Jaime. I also don't think that she could have predicted Jaimes actions - when you think about it it is completely rash and irrational to just ambush Ned in the street and try to kill him, whereas Catelyn called on her bannerman to arrest Tyrion in a somewhat legitimate manner, and her hand was somewhat forced when Tyrion recognised her at the inn. It might not have happened in exactly the same way, but I still think we would have ended up with dead Ned unfortunately. In saying that, I do think you can legitimately criticise Catelyn for not considering more the implications for this action on Ned, Arya and Sansa in KL, but is definitely an overreach and overly simplistic to boil everything down to this one action or say she 'started the war' - I'm putting much more of the blame for that on Littlefinger/ Lysa

Apologies if this has been posed before but: what if Lysa had never written the letter to Catelyn implicating the Lannisters in Jon Arryns death? I'm not sure Ned would have gone to KL - trying to find out what happened to Jon was a pretty big part in why he decided to go, maybe if suspicions hadn't already been aroused would never have suspected Jaime and Cersei in Brans fall?

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Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:30 am
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Also - what if Robert didn't go hunting? - I don't think there's any way Cersei could have got Robert killed if he'd stayed in the Red Keep. I remember reading AGOT the first time and thinking Cersei was this brilliant scheming genius, but she actually got incredibly lucky, was aided by Ned being all noble and stupid. I wonder if Littlefinger intended for the Lannisters to go down or was just simply intent on creating conflict and chaos?

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Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:35 am
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I didn't think that Robert went hunting to escape the Ned/Lannister situation I thought it was because this rare white hart was spotted (which was eaten by wolves btw). This was a very nerdy podcast, but thoroughly enjoyable.

I would like to present the 'what if' even after taking Tyrion captive everyone dies in the passes of the Vale by the mountain clans????? My guess is in KL they just kind of look at each other and shrug book series over.

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Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:26 am
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Varley wrote:
I didn't think that Robert went hunting to escape the Ned/Lannister situation I thought it was because this rare white hart was spotted (which was eaten by wolves btw). This was a very nerdy podcast, but thoroughly enjoyable.

I would like to present the 'what if' even after taking Tyrion captive everyone dies in the passes of the Vale by the mountain clans????? My guess is in KL they just kind of look at each other and shrug book series over.


You have an awesome display picture thingy!

I agree about Robert - I think he was already planning to go hunting anyway, but possible the Ned/Jaime thing made him want to escape the situation - but that's more Robert being a shitty king and not wanting to deal with conflict then really Catelyn's fault in my opinion. Yes, Catelyn seizing Tyrion 'caused' Jaime to confront Ned, but Jaime doing that was completely hotheaded and irrational, and there was enough tension between the Starks and Lannisters for things to happen like they did anyway.

possibly stupid question about Tyrion - what if he hadn't been in KL for Blackwater? Obviously his ingenuity with the chain/ wildfire are important and it sucks that he gets no credit for it, but exactly how far away is Tywin? I kind of get the impression that Tyrion's role was most important in that it held Stannis up and gave Tywin enough time to catch him unawares. Basically if Tyrion wasn't there, would Stannis have won KL for sure?

I know this has been debated for death and I don't want to start another Sansa debate/ flame war but what if Sansa had never gone to Cersei? Leaving aside a defence of this considering how little Sansa understood of the whole situation and that any aid she did give Cersei to move against her father was unintentional, what effect did this actually have in the plot? As far as I remember the only thing Sansa knows is that her and Arya are being sent back to Winterfell, which causes Cersei to move to try and take them as hostages to use as leverage against the Starks. She already knows that Ned knows about the kids being bastards, and was already planning for Robert to die on the hunt and was working within that time frame to make sure Ned doesn't have a chance to tell Robert and have her executed.

Basically, take out Sansa from this equation and Ned still gets his head cut off. I have to assume that Cersei would have assumed that Ned would send the girls away anyway, Sansa just gave her a tighter timeframe, and really Ned should have sent them away before saying anything to Cersei but that's a whole other discussion.

I'm not saying Sansa's actions here had no effect though - it meant that Cersei moved immediately to make Sansa her hostage (and attempted to take Arya) to use them as bargaining chips against Ned, and also meant that Jeyne Poole was taken away and given to Littlefinger. Also, Ned presumably would not have confessed to being a traitor and just would have told the truth in front of the crowd if he wasn't trying to protect Sansa - but it's debatable whether the crowd would have even believed him, and Stannis gets the truth out anyway. I didn't mean for this to be so long sorry and I know people are probably sick of debating this!

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Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:09 pm
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