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| New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion http://podcastoficeandfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2571 |
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| Author: | wheredowhoresgo [ Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
What if Catelyn wasn't tricked by the obvious dagger and doesn't take Tyrion? My take is that Ned doesn't get injured, no milk of the poppy, Jory is alive, and everything slows way down. It doesn't necessarily mean that the end result is much different, but it could be very different. Oh yeah, Robert doesn't go hunting right then either because he isn't trying to make peace with Ned and Cersei. |
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| Author: | Eiffel [ Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
Its been a while since I read GOT but I would think that Robert still goes hunting. It seems to be his MO. Ned would just be lucid during the aftermath of the hunt. |
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| Author: | wheredowhoresgo [ Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
Robert was frustrated with the situation. Jaime just killed Ned's men and injured Ned badly. Robert went hunting to escape the situation. You may be right but, I think Cat escalated the situation and forced the Lannisters to action. If this is correct, Catelyn was more to blame for the Stark's situation than anyone. |
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| Author: | Eiffel [ Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
wheredowhoresgo wrote: Robert was frustrated with the situation. Jaime just killed Ned's men and injured Ned badly. Robert went hunting to escape the situation. You may be right but, I think Cat escalated the situation and forced the Lannisters to action. If this is correct, Catelyn was more to blame for the Stark's situation than anyone. I understand she is reacting to an attack on one of her children and her actions are realistic and defensible but I have always thought that Catelyn was responsible for the downward spiral that occurred to the Starks. Had she kept her cool (hard to do I know!) and not have taken Tyrion prisoner and then to the Vale a good deal would have changed. Ned would have still discovered the truth about Joff/Myrc/Tomm but could have operated at a stronger position if Catelyn had not placed the Lannisters in such a bad position. |
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| Author: | wheredowhoresgo [ Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
Yeah that is what I see. It always felt forced to me anyway. Ned was playing with a stacked deck. His wife causes major problems, his daughter rats him out to Cersei and Robert abandons him and goes hunting to his demise. Poor Ned, most people now say he was stupid in the game and don't consider how he was handicapped by his family and best friend. |
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| Author: | Eiffel [ Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
wheredowhoresgo wrote: Yeah that is what I see. It always felt forced to me anyway. Ned was playing with a stacked deck. His wife causes major problems, his daughter rats him out to Cersei and Robert abandons him and goes hunting to his demise. Poor Ned, most people now say he was stupid in the game and don't consider how he was handicapped by his family and best friend. I don't blame Sansa. She does rat him out to Cersei but has good intentions and is also still a novice at the Game (I won't say child because the children in ASOIAF all seem much more mature than contemporary children). Catelyn though should have known better. With Robb she puts off this vibe that she is such a strategic thinker but in that pub she let her emotions get away with her (As a father I completely understand but as a former Naval officer I also understand that sometimes you have to put your familial emotions away when you are dealing with other people's lives). I never truly understood the Robert and Ned relationship. They seemed to have been good friends when they were younger and had some shared defining moments but at Winterfell and in Kings Landing you could tell that friendship was over in all but name. From stepping out of his carriage in Winterfell I could not understand why Ned would trust Robert at all and why he treated him as anything but a friendly overlord. |
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| Author: | Amin [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
I know I planned to do another one of these at some point, but that may not be for quite some time. I think Vassals of Kingsgrave was thinking about doing a what-if episode as well. I know I would enjoy listening to it, whether with the current group of VOK hosts or new people. Here is a copy from the google doc file we were looking at during the podcast - as you can see there were a lot left untouched and even if you wanted to repeat any done that's fine: Spoiler: show |
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| Author: | Nadia [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
We really should do one of these for vok. Though we probably won't be able to reach the epic proportions of nerdiness achieved in the most recent what if episode. |
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| Author: | aryastark7330 [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
Nadia wrote: We really should do one of these for vok. Though we probably won't be able to reach the epic proportions of nerdiness achieved in the most recent what if episode. That would be very difficult! On the Catelyn question this is quite possibly my shocking lack of knowledge / impulse to defend Catelyn but I don't know that it would have changed that much - Ned would still have told Cersei what he knew like an idiot. I can't remember exactly why Robert decided to go hunting but wouldn't that have been planned somewhat in advance? I'm not sure it was simply a reaction to the situation with Ned and Jaime. I also don't think that she could have predicted Jaimes actions - when you think about it it is completely rash and irrational to just ambush Ned in the street and try to kill him, whereas Catelyn called on her bannerman to arrest Tyrion in a somewhat legitimate manner, and her hand was somewhat forced when Tyrion recognised her at the inn. It might not have happened in exactly the same way, but I still think we would have ended up with dead Ned unfortunately. In saying that, I do think you can legitimately criticise Catelyn for not considering more the implications for this action on Ned, Arya and Sansa in KL, but is definitely an overreach and overly simplistic to boil everything down to this one action or say she 'started the war' - I'm putting much more of the blame for that on Littlefinger/ Lysa Apologies if this has been posed before but: what if Lysa had never written the letter to Catelyn implicating the Lannisters in Jon Arryns death? I'm not sure Ned would have gone to KL - trying to find out what happened to Jon was a pretty big part in why he decided to go, maybe if suspicions hadn't already been aroused would never have suspected Jaime and Cersei in Brans fall? |
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| Author: | aryastark7330 [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
Also - what if Robert didn't go hunting? - I don't think there's any way Cersei could have got Robert killed if he'd stayed in the Red Keep. I remember reading AGOT the first time and thinking Cersei was this brilliant scheming genius, but she actually got incredibly lucky, was aided by Ned being all noble and stupid. I wonder if Littlefinger intended for the Lannisters to go down or was just simply intent on creating conflict and chaos? |
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| Author: | Varley [ Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
I didn't think that Robert went hunting to escape the Ned/Lannister situation I thought it was because this rare white hart was spotted (which was eaten by wolves btw). This was a very nerdy podcast, but thoroughly enjoyable. I would like to present the 'what if' even after taking Tyrion captive everyone dies in the passes of the Vale by the mountain clans????? My guess is in KL they just kind of look at each other and shrug book series over. |
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| Author: | aryastark7330 [ Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New "What if?" suggestion for podcast or discussion |
Varley wrote: I didn't think that Robert went hunting to escape the Ned/Lannister situation I thought it was because this rare white hart was spotted (which was eaten by wolves btw). This was a very nerdy podcast, but thoroughly enjoyable. I would like to present the 'what if' even after taking Tyrion captive everyone dies in the passes of the Vale by the mountain clans????? My guess is in KL they just kind of look at each other and shrug book series over. You have an awesome display picture thingy! I agree about Robert - I think he was already planning to go hunting anyway, but possible the Ned/Jaime thing made him want to escape the situation - but that's more Robert being a shitty king and not wanting to deal with conflict then really Catelyn's fault in my opinion. Yes, Catelyn seizing Tyrion 'caused' Jaime to confront Ned, but Jaime doing that was completely hotheaded and irrational, and there was enough tension between the Starks and Lannisters for things to happen like they did anyway. possibly stupid question about Tyrion - what if he hadn't been in KL for Blackwater? Obviously his ingenuity with the chain/ wildfire are important and it sucks that he gets no credit for it, but exactly how far away is Tywin? I kind of get the impression that Tyrion's role was most important in that it held Stannis up and gave Tywin enough time to catch him unawares. Basically if Tyrion wasn't there, would Stannis have won KL for sure? I know this has been debated for death and I don't want to start another Sansa debate/ flame war but what if Sansa had never gone to Cersei? Leaving aside a defence of this considering how little Sansa understood of the whole situation and that any aid she did give Cersei to move against her father was unintentional, what effect did this actually have in the plot? As far as I remember the only thing Sansa knows is that her and Arya are being sent back to Winterfell, which causes Cersei to move to try and take them as hostages to use as leverage against the Starks. She already knows that Ned knows about the kids being bastards, and was already planning for Robert to die on the hunt and was working within that time frame to make sure Ned doesn't have a chance to tell Robert and have her executed. Basically, take out Sansa from this equation and Ned still gets his head cut off. I have to assume that Cersei would have assumed that Ned would send the girls away anyway, Sansa just gave her a tighter timeframe, and really Ned should have sent them away before saying anything to Cersei but that's a whole other discussion. I'm not saying Sansa's actions here had no effect though - it meant that Cersei moved immediately to make Sansa her hostage (and attempted to take Arya) to use them as bargaining chips against Ned, and also meant that Jeyne Poole was taken away and given to Littlefinger. Also, Ned presumably would not have confessed to being a traitor and just would have told the truth in front of the crowd if he wasn't trying to protect Sansa - but it's debatable whether the crowd would have even believed him, and Stannis gets the truth out anyway. I didn't mean for this to be so long sorry and I know people are probably sick of debating this! |
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