This is going to come across as harsh probably, but am I alone in thinking that Amin is making the podcast almost unbearable?

I am a GOT fan who recently started reading the books and was searching for off-season content when I stumbled across this podcast. I love the passion and knowledge of the hosts, but find myself cringing about 50% of the time Amin talks (which is a lot). He seems to go out of his way to espouse these far-fetched theories or pulls at the most remote threads of possibilities to explain inconsistencies between the book and TV show.

He's like that annoying friend you had in school that tries to dream up some fathomable reason for why the jackass in your class just did something stupid ("no- it's not because his family has Viking roots and that's what Vikings did 1,000 years ago - it's because he's a friggin jackass").

I just got done listening to Episode 106 and his meanderings about the Tyrells troop strength, Cersei and Littlefinger, why Rob should have gone North instead of seeking the Frey's help in taking Casterly Rock etc. etc. just make you want to stab yourself in the eye with a rusty pitchfork.

Also, he seems to go out of his way to throw out spoilers when they add nothing to the conversation (like talking about Rob's imminent death). I get that there are spoiler warnings and all that but at some point the hosts have to decide whether they are playing to the book audience or the TV show audience or both. If they are assuming that EVERYONE who listens has read all 10,000 pages of the books then why break down the TV show at all? Why not just have the whole podcast be about the books?

Alternatively, why not just take the TV show at face value and point out inconsistencies or differences along the way, but not go out of their way to throw spoilers out when it's not necessary? I guess they have to decide if they are trying to put forth an entertaining and marketable product (by appealing to the widest audience possible) or just stroking their own egos with their (obviously extensive) knowledge. Amin seems to throw out spoilers not as a way to add to the conversation but more as a way to make sure we know how smart he is and how he has read all the books (and wants to make sure we all know it dammit!).

I'm just one listener and I'm sure my opinion doesn't move the needle in one direction or another but I see great potential in this podcast and was wondering if others felt the same way and were hopeful the hosts might entertain thoughts on how to make it even better.

If none of that is palatable, then at the very least measure the total talk time of all the participants and limit Amin's contributions to what is proportionate - I for one will be grateful.

Carry on - /rant off

Boneman - King of Nothing

What? You don't like the crazy theories? Oh my god man! I guess to each his own. Personally I love Amin. He's one of the highlights of the podcast for me. I love that he brings his own particular wit and intellect to the conversation and although I don't usually agree with his theories I think they're amusing and they've made their way into the apoiaf culture. I'm pretty patient with people having their qualms with adaptations because I understand that often goes along with bein a real fan of something. You can't help but question some of the choices because you value certain aspects of the original material so much.

Sucks that he annoys you because he is a huge part of the driving force behind the podcast and he's in most of the episodes. Hope you can get past it because he's got IMHO some pretty good stuff recorded.

It is a book podcast. So any information that is in the already published books is not a spoiler. And it does not matter if the series is not as far as the books, it still is not a spoiler if they declare themselves as "book podcast". There are some "spoiler free" episodes in regards of the series, but they are special, and to make it clear: I normally like them less because I have the feeling the hosts restrict themselve and can not speak as freely as normal.

I know Amin's quest to "make up a new and unique theory" sometimes is a bit obsessive and seems forced, but hey, why not. It is his podcast. I'm just glad that not only Mimi gets her haters, now it is equal again

You think that this "some point" is somewhere in the future?
The cast existed before the show. The show has been on for three years. I think they have made and are comfortable with their decision.

It is a podcast about A Song of Ice and Fire. If you are looking for no spoilers, this may not be the place for you. The only episodes that make me consider sticking a fork in my eye are the (partial) non spoiler ones.
Why even listen to the non show episodes if you are not interested in discussion about the books?

The notion that for something to be entertaining that it must appeal to the widest audience possible is strange to me.

Quite a few of of us enjoy crank theories discussion even if in the end we do not believe most of them. Sorry if that isn't your jam.

Hopefully I do not come off as having Viking roots.

I'm probably not explaining myself well - it's not the crackpot theories per se - it's more that he's like a dog with a bone with his points of view and that tends to overshadow the other hosts who I find more enjoyable. Does that make any sense?

I get that but what I find weird/disconcerting is that it's a book podcast but 90% of the content/format is about the TV show - doesn't that seem a little inconsistent? I mean the whole format is to go through the show scene by scene (or character by character) - no? I'm new enough that I don't know if they started this 5 years ago and already have 200 podcasts on the books (all I see in the archives are shows that related to each TV episode).

That being the case, isn't is reasonable to think that some of their audience - or even perhaps a majority of their potential audience - has only been brought into their fold via the TV show? Again - I'm not say no spoilers ever - my point was that Amin tends to use them unnecessarily. Go back and compare his use of spoilers with everyone else's - I'd wager that it's at least a 3-1 ratio.

I AM interested in the books and have started reading them, that wasn't my point. And I totally agree that the cast is free to do as they wish and I can go take a flying f&*k if I don't like it lol. It would seem to me though the one of the reasons they would want to do a podcast was for it to be successful and to reach as many people as possible. If not - why not just get together among themselves and talk about whatever they want to and not put it out there for our consumption? My points were made in the (hopefully constructive) guise of sharing one viewer's criticisms in what I think is a good and viable product that could IMO be even better. So far I am clearly in the minority. It remains to be seen whether or not people who have not become as strong of fans as you guys feel the same way - it's quite possible they have tried the product and were turned off for the same reasons as me and therefore never crossed into 'fanboi' status heh.

I think one issue with the way you're looking at things is the idea that spoilers are being 'used.' The podcast consists of people who have read the books, and who liked them so much that they wanted to talk about them, but didn't have many friends that had read them, so they made a podcast. Then the show came out and like many people who read the books, they started watching the show and found they wanted to talk about that as well. If you look at the podcast as a product being made for listeners, with the topics and opinions chosen to appeal to the largest market possible, then you're missing the point. The hosts talk about what they found interesting, and quite a number of people found that interesting, there's no reason that it needs to appeal to the largest possible market.

As far as the podcast being 90% about the show, or even all the visible shows in the 'archive' being about the show, the last episode about the show was #112, #120 came out yesterday, so that's at best 55% since the start of season 3. Also, if they're doing one show per episode, and there have been 30 episodes of GoT, and 120 episodes of APoIaF, I feel like there's a pretty good chance some of them aren't about the show.

I think immediately we have to separate any personal criticism of me (which was quite civil) with the presence of book spoilers in the podcasts. If you haven't read all five published books and are listening to our podcast right now I would suggest for your own good to immediately stop listening until if and when you read the 5 books, because we have spoilers in almost all of our episodes. We are a book oriented podcast first, and that is the angle of interpretation we come at most of our episodes, and we don't keep track of the numbers or bother censoring them. The forums also have spoilers for all 5 books everywhere.

You're not alone in wondering whether you're alone in using a vaguely-titled thread to express exasperation with a host.

http://podcastoficeandfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2426

In other words...

Bolin Ryan the tall: "Oooh Korra Boneman. There they go. Here we are. All alone in the gym forums. Just you and me. Two alone people. Together... alone."

I've always understood this is a podcast about the books first and foremost, and the tv show second. And even when discussing the show it is in relation to the books.

I truly don't understand people who post on forums (civil or not) about why they hate major aspects of a particular thing on the forum dedicated to that thing. If I hate Harry Potter I don't find the need to go onto any of the fan forums and trash the books/movies to their fans, it just seems like trolling to me.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but there is so much negativity on the net.

This so much. They say at the top of the show that it contains spoilers for all the books. It is literally the first thing you hear. You were warned about spoilers, and you ignored that warning and are now complaining about them. You get no sympathy.

Ok - this started out as <mostly> civil but I see that changing heh. Mainly because it's obvious that most of you people cannot read. At all. The main point of this post was my opinion that Amin was the weak link in an otherwise entertaining crew. While talking more than the other contributors he rarely adds as much value as his co-hosts. The point about the spoilers was just an example.

Go back and listen to Episode 106. When Amin mentions that whatever point they are discussing is moot because Rob 'is going to die anyway' even Kyle can be heard saying "whoa!" because he knows that comment isn't germane to the discussion at hand and totally superfluous. And then at the end when he goes on and on about why they might have downplayed the importance of the Tyrell's army size Ashley hints that he is being ridiculous and she is losing her interest/patience. That in a nutshell is my complaint about Amin. I'm sure he is smart. I'm sure he is dedicated. I don't doubt his passion. I just find myself wanting to tune out the more the speaks. Forgive me if I'm wrong - but isn't that what a forum is for - i.e. opinions? Or are we all just supposed to come here and worship at the alter? I swear that most of you take it as a personal affront if someone doesn't love EVERY aspect of something you all obviously care deeply about. Is it conceivable that the podcast could - gasp! - become even better if they took into account others' criticisms?

And to Tom 162 - thank you for your pithy and erudite contribution. Yes - I can see how you would equate my criticism to someone who makes a thread stating that they hate one of the hosts. That is totally a fair comparison. Bravo. Perhaps I could curry favor with you if I changed the title to "Amin is probably a nice guy but really friggin annoying at times"?

While a forum is meant for opinions, there's a huge difference between 'this episode was not my favourite, I prefer when you talk about etc. etc.' and 'I want to tune out when Amin speaks because he's a weak link'. It's getting personal on a level that this forum usually doesn't go to. We're a pretty friendly community, and many of us have guest hosted on the show, worked with behind the scenes, and even met the hosts. Of course we're going to get a bit defensive.

If you have a look at the other threads,we most definitely let the hosts know when we don't like an episode. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the listeners did post in a particular episode "Host Cersei talked soooooooo much this episode. Yawn. Let host Tyrion and Jaime get a word in!!" It's happened before, and no one is afraid of criticism - it's always a good thing, and the hosts take it on board, and have made changes in the past in response to listener feedback.

I think why you've gotten such a bad response on the forums is because you've started a thread to complain about 1 specific host. As I said, we're relatively small, and most people who post on here have been around long enough to know the other posters - and we're not big fans of new listeners who we don't really know coming in and criticising someone who is a huge part of why we are all here on these forums.

I'd recommend you finish reading the books, and listen to the earlier episodes. Or if you're looking for a 'spoiler free' podcast, Game of Owns seems to be a pretty popular podcast. I can't see APOIAF changing their discussion to avoid spoilers when there are so many other outlets for TV only viewers.

That is a reasonable and well thought out response - thank you. I can see how fans and co-hosts might be protective of one of their own. And I totally get how the views of 'the new guy' are often (and perhaps rightly) discounted. To be honest, I'm not the kind of guy that ever cares enough to post on forums or voice criticisms. I guess it's a side effect of my new-found GOT addiction that I was hoping this might be a good venue to 'keep the fires burning' during the looong off season lol. But perhaps not heh.

I think its human nature for a consumer to take a product (especially in the entertainment industry) and critique and criticize it in a way that dehumanizes the product and tries to grab attention more than offer constructive feedback. Add in the abyss of the internet and the effect can magnify. Its helpful that you were able to offer some specific examples of things you disliked. much better than just saying "i hate (insert name here)". even the "stab myself in the ear" hyperboles can come off a bit harsh in a closer knit community especially when its your first ever post and its difficult to consider context/sarcasm without previous posts.

one thing amin does that he doesnt get enough credit for is alot of the behind the scenes work at the podcast. he's easily the most active audio editor (which takes literally hours of his time) and forum moderator. in my opinion, if i were to make a sports analogy, i think mimi and kyle are more suited to 'play-by-play'/moderator roles and amin and ashley more suited to 'color commenting'. everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and you'll find that the hosts always appreciate and receptive to constructive, respectful feedback.

i would also be a bit more respectful when trying to put words in other peoples' mouths. assuming that ashley "was so annoyed with amin" or kyle thought what amin said was so "pointless" is pretty speculative at best. i think you'll find that all the hosts really get along with each other and interpreting hidden meanings and emotions might be better after hearing their full body of work instead of just a few episodes. welcome to the forums and i'd agree that you'd appreciate this podcast much better after reading all the books and being a bit more familiar with their earlier work.

Well said Jesicka and Linecom

I think it's fair to say we are a little defensive against rants on the podcast hosts. I appreciate the need to vent when something bugs you and you can't help it after all if Amin does bug you. But like others have said, this is an intimate community and we have a lot of respect and appreciation for Amin and his work around here. I'm sure Amin can pull up his big boy pants and brush it off and I hope you'll stick around despite the backlash. You seem like a pretty intelligent guy and I look forward to hearing your opinion on the books once you've finished.

To me, the current foursome works well because they're all different and I love listening to them all. It'd be a very different podcast minus Amin's particular nerdery and I'd almost certainly like it way less. If you lose that, it'd be thrown out of balance and would slowly morph into Kyle's audio diary/ornithology hour. Plus, I get the impression that Amins pretty much the ringmaster as far as getting a recording down.

This is the place for fairly deep nerdery, including crackpot theories, plus dick jokes.



I love that guy! Wait, I am that guy!



Because it's more fun for us book-first people who've read all the books at least three times (average?) to have it be like that, with spoilers flying at all times and anything goes. It's not about demonstrating how smart he is, I wouldn't think, because most people listening knew whatever he's just said. Generally, the podcast has decided it wants to fill the niche its in and I think that's a good decision both because I like it best and because there's no other podcast like it.

Sometimes Amin's wrong, though, and must be brought to heal. I suggest we create an evil Robot Amin to do that, whenever he says a minor Targaryen's name wrong, it wakes up in the corner like Dot Matrix in Spaceballs and pummels him with its metal fists until he gets it right. Or I could post messages on this board.

Personally one of the things that I like about the podcast is that it seems like they tend not to pander purely to the masses in the hope of getting more listeners. I look at it as a group of friends discussing the books and comparing it to the show (when the series is airing). The reason I like that is I really relate to it. After every episode was aired when I meet with book readers who have seen the show we discuss it complain, compliment etc and things like it doesn't really matter. Robbs going to die anyway is just a passing comment because he is so used to being able to talk freely and openly not to purposefully spoil anything. Which I think is kinda why he would have joined the podcast in the first place.

Amin does come up with some ridiculous theories and sometimes you might go pfft never gonna happen. I love the fact that all these things are discussed though because sometimes just sometimes these theories aren't that far from the truth. I also like that Amin doesn't only discuss his own crack pot theories but the crack pot theories of forum posters and other websites.

I think each of the hosts have their own strengths and weaknesses and for the most part they compliment each other pretty well. I'm not a regular poster in the forums more of a lurker if that could sound any creepier and the community does appear to be relatively small and close nit but like someone said previously feel to offer constructive criticism on episode to episode basis.

Do you seriously think Robb dying is a spoiler to anyone listening to the podcast? They frequently refer to events up to book 5 in various discussions (Bloodraven, the TreeNet, and all that). I haven't gone back and listened to the event that you mentioned, but I'd be willing to speculate that Kyle's "Whoa!" was in jest, kind of like in the recent Guys' Night episode where they're talking about the Wall and the Others and pretending to be spoiled ("Wait, there's a wall in this series?").

I can't imagine how utterly fucked you would be if you listened to the podcast without having read not only A Storm of Swords but also all the of the published books. From what I understand, the only things that count as spoilers are the advance chapters from TWOW. Good thing they explain all of this very clearly at the beginning of every podcast.

I agree to some extent that meticulous dissections of army sizes and battle strategies makes me tune out a little, but that's just never been what drew me to the series, and I don't take issue with someone else being interested in it.

Each of the hosts have strengths and weaknesses (like every person in the entire history of the world). One immense plus about Amin is his behind the scenes work. Listen to 119 and he mentions a meeting with Mimi on the state of the podcast.

A meeting!!

Does Amin's desire to make up a crackpot theory for every occasion get old at times? Sure. Do your friends and family get annoying at times? Of course.

The main audience APOIAF is those who have read the books and possibly watch the shows. My wife only watches the show. I would never recommend APOIAF to her. I will bring up things mentioned to her but the only way you can really benefit from the full discussions is if you have read and watched everything. I don't think APOIAF is going after every listener but only those who have consumed everything in GRRM's world. I haven't read Dunk/Egg yet and feel lost at times but that is my fault and not the shows.

Finally if you don't like Amin on APOIAF I would recommend listening to Vassels and BoK. Some of the discussions (FeastDance recap once you have read FeastDance) are amazingly well done. Some seem professionally made and I think that is a credit to Amin and the rest of the crew for creating this forum of discussion.

Although it WAS hilarious how surprised Kyle was that it was even happening and how he had been NFId!

Yeah that was pretty funny. Mimi and Amin are the elder guardians of APOIAF and Kyle is a relatively newcomer right?

These meetings should be recorded!

It wasn't even a spoiler to me - I had already watched the entire season and was just going back to listen to the older podcasts. My point is that it was gratuitous.

To the others - good points all. Thank you

boneman tbh i am 100% with you, down with amin, that mimi girl should get full reign of the podcast and its full bounty of spoilers.

Haha - nice

To be fair: without amin's backstage work of writing to interview partners, editing and contacting guest hosts / forum members and all the advertising stuff (deviantart, twitter, facebokk) - I'm pretty sure the podcast would have died at about episode 70. I think this work os even more important than Mimi's who generously - still - pays for the bandwidth as far as I know.

I love how precise you are Brynden.

It's not gratuitous, (or at least no more than any comment not very strictly on topic) the podcast is intended for people who have read the books. Mentioning Robb's death is less gratuitous or spoiler-y for the vast majority of listeners than making an off-hand comment about Vader being Luke's father.

I wonder if Mike knew about this meeting.