A truly excellent episode with really interesting discussions.
Lady Griffin was another exceptional guest. Very much enjoyed all the Team Stannis talk!
Only complaint is the episode should have been called Cersei's Purse.

This came out two days ago?! I must be blind. Thanks for making a topic FTWard.

Really good episode guys, Lady Griffin was a joy to listen to as always. The aftershow had me laughing hysterically when Ashley said the recording software "wanted money". I don't know which amused me more, the delivery or the idea of a program lusting for money.

Interesting point you bring up how shitty the Kingsguard were under Robert. It seems that it would be the kind of thing that he might actually be interested in, and with all the tourneys he was throwing he would've had the pick of the litter. Cersei probably nagged him until he gave up "FINE! Name whoever the fuck you want, woman! I'm going hunting!*SLAM*". Most of the Kingsguard were Lannister toadies, correct? I think Amin brought up the theory on one of the Season Three show review episodes that since Mandon Moore was from the Vale he might have been Littlefinger's creature.

They could have made it rhyme and sound dirty at the same time: Cersei's Pursei

Ser Cortnay Penrose is by far my favorite minor character. Biggest trash talker in all Seven Kingdoms.

Quote:

He turned his scorn on Guyard Morrigen. "I might ask the same of you, ser. Guyard the Green, yes? Of the Rainbow Guard? Sworn to give his own life for his king's? If I had such a cloak, I would be ashamed to wear it."

Morrigen bristled. "Be glad this is a parley, Penrose, or I would have your tongue for those words."

"And cast it in the same fire where you left your manhood?"

-

The king pointed a finger at him. "I give you fair warning. If you force me to take my castle by storm, you may expect no mercy. I will hang you for traitors, every one of you."

"As the gods will it. Bring on your storm, my lord-and recall, if you do, the name of this castle." Ser Cortnay gave a pull on his reins and rode back toward the gate.

The greatest. Shame he didn't last the night.

Agreed Alias, and it was a great episode!!! Great to hear Katie too. Also, I had a thought about prophecy. I don't think the prophecies are inevitable, I think they're very much inspired by ancient greek tragedy. This stuff wouldn't come true if people ignored it, but because they try to avoid it they bring it into being. The key to prophecy is to cover your ears and refuse to listen

I think Quaithe's


Makes for a very interesting case regarding inevivitability.

I blame Jon Arryn and Barristan Selmy for the sorry state of Robert's Kinsguard.

Yeah, I have entirely come around to your they are useless somewhat dishonorable weasels belief.

Wow Lady Griffin was very dismissive of the fate of Tyrek Lannister. While I'll admit that there is a decent chance that he is dead, he's been mentioned enough to make me think that he might still be alive.

Who was Robert's Squire that's currently riding with Stannis? I thought that Robert had wanted to promote him to king's guard but Cersei nixed that. He apparently had the same appetites as Robert, I blame Cersei for the state of the king's guard.

Nah, Cersei didn't help but the problem here is Jon Arryn and B Selmy. Barristan and Jaime should both have gone to the wall and a whole new guard, of the best men from the rebel side (Blackfish and others) should have taken up the white to refresh things after the rebellion. Instead the cloak was soiled, the best and most honorable no longer wanted to join, and then the nepotism and factionalism somehow made things even worse.

Justin Massey I think, he seems like a good dude. Would've made a decent White Sword.

I can see Jon Arryn selling the honor of the Kingsguard to use the spots as political bargaining chips, but I think Barristan just went into a complete torpor after the war. He certainly shares in the blame due to his apathy, but he wasn't actively letting the rats in. Does the Lord Commander have any say in who is named to the Kingsguard? There are probably things Barristan could have done even afterwards, as we see with Jaime chewing out the KG and attempting to whip them into some kind of shape.

My issue with Barristan is that he tarnished the guard by staying on it. And Arryn didn't sell spots to powerful houses, that would have helped! Instead he insisted that Jaime be pardoned and Barristan stay, both things which badly damaged it's reputation and prevented them from filling it with men from powerful houses. Or at least, that's my feeling.

I think its pretty realistic. Not everyone can be a hidden Targ or 'not really dead.' If GRRM keeps pulling people out of the grave without any conspiracy it will become dull very fast.

Look at the alread established returnees from the dead and the fan fics:

Dany/Vis - Really? They were spirited away without anyone knowing? OK well thats weird but ok.
Aegon - What?!? Another hidden Targ? (if he is a Blackfyre without knowing it this story becomes much more fascinating)
JonCon - Faked his own death. Ok, fine but how many of these are we going to have to deal with?
Cat/unCat - Still wondering why this happened...
Benjen/Coldhands - Eh...ok, but why?
Tyrek - Another one of the grand Littlefinger or Varys plots? How good do we really think they are?
Gerion Lannister - Just because he is mentioned sometimes means he is alive?
Tysha - The Sailor's Wife? Why can't she be dead?

I fully understand the wheels within wheels and plots within plots motiff that GRRM uses but sometimes people just need to stay dead.

I agree about the trope but your list is not great my friend. Everyone knew Dany and Viserys were alive, it' s just that no one did anything about it. There is no proof Benjen is coldhands, in fact there's some proof that he's not (how old he's implied to be). And I strongly believe that Gerion and Tysha are gone for good, so the list is not quite as long as all that. Still, I agree, I think Tyrek is toast. And the point of unCat, for me, is the idea that resurrection is not a good thing. That could only really be shown with a character we already knew, to have it be Cat, and a cat with everything human about her stripped away at that, was, for me, a very powerful choice.

Thanks. I will admit it is not the best. Off the cuff I was trying to point out how many times either GRRM has used "you thought they were dead but now they are back!" or there is a strong contingent of people that think a person is either still alive and is hiding as another person (Gerion, Tysha, and Benjen in a way).

I take back Dany/Vis. For some reason I thought that Dany/Vis were still alive was a shock. After digging through ToH I realized that her chapter was before Robert arrived at Winterfell and talked trash about the Targaryans. For some reason I thought we heard his anger at them and about Dany/Vis dying at Dragonstone before we were introduced to them. My fault.

Is that the reason for unCat? I agree with you that is the message but did it need to be said? The only resurrection before that was Beric (I think?) and I feel that that moral is a little out of place. Maybe there will be a bigger resurrection (Jon Snow?) in the future but I feel that it is a little out of place in the world.

Her and the High Septon's resolution is the biggest question for me when it comes to ASOIAF.

Hey, this is my first post outside of the 'Introduce Yourself' thread, I've got to say this was a great episode. I loved the Davos and Stannis discussion, they're definitely my favourite partnership in the series.

Lots of interesting points were brought up about Melisandre and her fire visions, I think there are a lot of parallels between those and Jojen's green dreams. Their visions of Renley smashing Stannis outside Kings Landing and Bran and Rickon being dead at the feet of Ramsay Snow are both misleading visions but both came true in their own way. The gods seem to give most of the truth but never the whole story.

One member of the kingsguard who will never whore that didn't get mentioned, Ser Robert Strong...

No worries! I agree with you about Tyrek anyway. And with Cat, I dunno if it's a moral. It's more of a demonstration that magic is kind of brutal in this world. Plus I enjoy her vengeance driven craziness against the freys, and the way it turns your initial excitement that she's still around into fear and loathing is pretty clever too. But I agree, LS and High Septon are both fascinating plot threads for the next book.

Now that is interesting. It goes along with the whole "Revenge is bad" storyline that Stefan writes about but in a more subtle way. I guess I never thought about it this way because I was not a huge fan of Cat or Robb and my dislike for the Freys is that they went against established norms in such a blatent way. If they had done the same to the Lannisters or any other contingent I would have thought them just as dispicable.

I hope something like this does not happen to Manderly...

I love Manderly more than anyone but I don't think for a second that he's escaping this story intact. He is the villain in virtually every medieval story ever, he fed people their own kin in pie form and enjoyed every second of it. His end will probably be quite brutal.

Katie Randyll Tarly'd it before it got any momentum! Varys' payroll stretches to our universe too.

Richard Horpe (Stannis' 2nd) wanted a white cloak from Robert but Cersei refused it. Massey was just his squire.

Arys Oakheart says that Preston Greenfield & Boros Blount frequented brothels. I think Mandon is too creepy for whores and Trant is meant to be old and apathetic to that kind of thing. The Next Gen Kingsguard were another split bag; Sandor and Osmund were whoremongers but I think Loras and Balon were truer.

I had a feeling that Tyrion sent Arys because if anything happened to him, the Oakhearts (one of the more prominent Reach bannermen) would be helpful if they had to crack Dorne open to get Myrcella back. Varys might have suggested it seeing as he advised Eddard to do the same thing with Loras and The Mountain's pillaging.

Cortnay had raised Edric for most of his life and looked to him as the son he never had. Stannis' marriage bed was soiled by Edric's parents so Cortnay will probably think the worst of Stannis' intentions.

The Estermont is the unnamed Lord of Greenstone for the first 3 novels (maternal grandfather of Robert, Stannis & Renly). I do think GRRM slipped up but he eventually rectifies it in the ADWD appendix. That Lord Estermont died and his younger brother Eldon took lordship of Greenstone. Eldon would marry Sylva Santagar and both are being carted to Aegon VI by Marq Mandrake.

Funny episode as usual.

Dayum, knowledge'd!!

holy hell! now i feel like an idiot.

At least you guys are entertaining. You sometimes speculate without knowing the facts so it really is quite funny!

My re-read contribution on ToTH would probably be more popular if I had the charisma & showmanship of the hosts to put into words!

Consider me schooled.

Tyrek Lannister = UGH.

George has ways of anchoring us in time. It makes sense that we're still feeling the ripples months and months after a major event like the riot. Tyrek Lanister is useful shorthand.

Plus, Occam's razor. Benjen's disappearance (which I don't think will ever be addressed) is set against a backdrop of mysterious evil. Tyrek is a victim of anarchy. That he might still be part of some clandestine plot of Varys' is overcomplicated and at this point wasted payoff.

Just my two cents. Ignore the hand slipping me a wad of Benjamins.

p.s. - It was a lot of fun being on the podcast. Glad I got the chance.

I like to think that Tyrek is actually in Essos somewhere. That he did an Arya and got lost in the chaos, and managed to catch a ship out.

Arya comes across a dead Westerosi in the Braavos temple with curly hair. Tyrek perhaps? If Tyrek survived the riot, I'm sure he left Kings Landing, and they would have found him by foot. He never has to turn up again, but that doesn't mean he's dead, either.

Possible, but why? What would he have to run away from?

Don't know. Maybe he was a Stark apologist? Maybe he decided to go find Gerion in Essos?

How old is this Tyrek? I know him not.

Maybe he felt guilty about Robert's death. We don't know if he had any involvement or knowledge of the wine but if he did and saw the way the realm is tearing itself apart, he may have wanted out. That's how I would reason him willingly leaving.

Some people on Westeros have theorised Tyrek is the curly-haired corpse at HouseBW but Tyrek had long straight hair in comparison to standard curly Lancel.

I think he is a year younger than Lancel.

Really? I always thought of him as much younger