That was great! Definitely one of my favorite episodes of APOIAF so far. I loved the discussion, not just the visions themselves, but of how horrifying and surreal the writing in the chapter was. It was almost Lovecraftian, like being exposed to the true workings of the world could drive a person insane (currents of fate and death, etc.).

I really like the theory about Missandei being the traitor for love. It would have to be unwitting of course, since Missandei is so clearly a good person (e.g. staying by Quentyn's bedside and comforting him after everyone else had left).

Also, I thought the white lion running through the field might be Tyrion, since he is "shorter than a man". And the corpse smiling sadly might be Theon returning home (since he is often described as a corpse).

Er.. I think you mean Tatters?

Shhh, you'll blow the whole deal.

Maybe Missandei is Faceless Man Arya sent from the future to stop Dany before things get out of hand.

I know this isn't true but it would make me so fucking happy. I really llked Quentyn. now we've made me sad

This episode was awesome by the way after listening through it. It's great how much these prophecies and insights that occurred so early in the story factor into the broad scope even still. That's one of the things I love about this series and those like it.

Very nice episode, thanks guys. But why y'all be hatin on my bro Victarion?
Also, Euron feeding one of the warlocks to his colleagues isn't terrifying, it's hilarious just deserts.

Surely if the white lion was to have any symbolic value, it would be to Jaime? Actually read a pretty legit theory on Westeros a while back that a passage where Viserion digs his claws into Dany's hrakkar-skin cloak portends Jaime slaying him and dying in the process.

I feel this great offhand comment by Katie got lost on the pod itself, so I decided to commemorate it here:

I still think it will be Illyrio who will be the betrayer for gold, since I believe Dany was plan B, a decoy, while plan A has been Aegon ( true or false). Still Euron is the wild card. someone who guzzles the Shade is bound to do all sorts of havoc.

Immortality is dull.



Missandei = Empire Destroyer 2014. It is known.

This one was a lot of fun. Missandei is definitely a sweet person (who loves Dany to death), but god is that a recipe for exploitation. Dany's relationship with her is unpolitical, non-sexual, and one of the few reliefs she has from the pressures of rulership. In the game of thrones your heart gets you killed, and it wouldn't surprise me if Missandei ends up being Dany's weak spot in TWOW. She can't even kill children she doesn't know, let alone one who is arguably her best friend.



Delicious tears.

I found Amin's idea that the magic of the warlocks is similar to the weirwoods interesting. The trees they make the shade of the evening from do grow on the premises of the House. And the consumption of weirwood paste and shade of the evening has almost identical effects, although the initial taste of weirwood paste isn't nearly as bad as that of SotE.
Katie, you mentioned this was a trope dating back to the Bible where a bunch of angels made a guy eat a book or something? I found that intriguing and confusing.

I kind of doubt the Undying have their own treenet though. The only explicitly magical thing in there I can think of is the pulsing heart and their "immortality." Is it implied that their longevity is derived from drinking shade of the evening? Do we know how Bloodraven prolonged his life? Eventually he had roots growing through him and all, I figured that sustained him.

Revelations 10:9-11: "So I went to the angel, telling him to give me the little book. And he said to me, "Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey." I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. And they said to me, 'You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.'"

Slightly different, but the idea of eating something that switches from sweet to bitter or bitter to sweet is very very old. Something is transforming inside you, spiritually or chemically.

At least that's what I remember. I'm a lapsed Baptist so I could be wrong.

I get the impression the Warlocks are a lot like the pyromancers: descendants of an old, powerful order who unexpectedly find their powers returning. They probably sat around chugging shade of the evening until Dany birthed her dragons and real magic started coming back. Whether or not they know how to properly use it is up for debate.

This was great! The first time I read this chapter I had absolutely no idea what any of it meant. It all just seemed so crazy to me that thinking about it made me head hurt. I'm never smart enough to pick up on any of this stuff without someone telling me what it means though.

I also agree that Rhaegar is the worst and feel sorry for Elia. And Jon and Dany getting together romantically would be the most cliched horrible thing to ever happen. Dany is his aunt right? I know that's not really an issue with Targaryens, but still.

For some reason I totally forgot that part of the prophecy was that all of Dany's husbands would die. Now I hope she does get married briefly to Victarion so that he dies. Although I do kind of agree with what Ashley said on a different episode - that Dany would probably be into Victarion. She has weird taste in guys.

I would pay anything for an anime version of just this chapter, how long does HBO have 'rights' over A Song of Ice and Fire?

Great episode. I had hoped that we'd get Ashley and Kyle on this episode too, but the guest hosts definitely held up their end. What I found most interesting is what every thought of the prophesies through their first read. Personally I recognized the things that already happened, but things like the red wedding I had no idea about. I always thought that scene referred to Robb but more about his conquest of the North/Riverlands/Westerlands, with the death that it brought. Of course on re-reads you can draw more direct parallels.

One more point. Why are feasts of the dead a common theme in these books. Doesn't Theon also dream, or see, King Robert, Ned, Robb, and more eating though they were all gutted/headless/etc? I think Jon maybe had a similar dream, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I am still bitter that the show didn't do this chapter justice, and I'm not even someone who is hugely into this as much as some other people. It reads like it would be so cinematic and visually stunning. I get that they didn't want to confuse new viewers, and I get leaving the Red Wedding stuff out, but fuck it it's a fantasy sometimes you just need to go all out crazy. Oh well, I've come to terms with the fact that the show is just never going to include the prophecies or the same depth of history.

What I was coming here to write. The anti-weirwood network. white-black, red-blue.




I think this may either be what Summer sees after the sack of Winterfell or Jon Connington, with shadow/black fire/fyre.


And Shireen is marrying Rickon. It is known.

Nice!

I do not think they could habe give HotU justice on GoT. It will always be better in my head...or as an anime episode...

Ooh that makes sense, anti weirwoods!! Wait, are the warlocks in line with the Others maybe? Anti R'hllor at least?

* House of Shippers LOL!!. You need to copyright that Katie

I think the TV show added some clarity on what the Warlocks were trying to do. Magic has become more potent, they must have felt it because of the dragons. They wanted to keep the dragons in Quarth so they needed Dany. Thats why they were showing her all these visions like the house with the red door and such, to get her guard down and trap her there.



Aye Peter, I too feel the Victarian hate is disproportional high . Now I know how hipsters feel.

I think it's cause he's one of the single worst human beings in ASoIaF, and that's saying something.

He's definitely become the VoK whipping boy. Shellfish, you and Vik need to get together to mount a proper defense for Victarion. I don't know what it is, but I trust in your powers of persuasion.

He has a huge axe, a sweet helmet and a goddamn volcanic arm!

Case closed.

Yes if he's your 'bro', please, mount a defense! I'd love to see it.

I mean, we totally redeemed Quentyn right? RIGHT?? Poor guy.

Quentyn's a loser, but at least he's well meaning.

He just tried to do one great thing and he got bbq-ed for his trouble. Womp womp. He's not misogyny on legs. Though admittedly, the volcano arm is dumb cool.

Agreed. Poor Quentyn. Victarion is kind of grimly hilarious because he's such a dumbass, but he is by far the most unpleasant POV character to me and I hate being in his head. I still can't get over the whole "OMG I feel so sorry for myself because my brother made me kill my wife" WTF dude? And I get that maybe that's a Iron Islands cultural thing but fuck it, I can't even deal. Rodrik the Reader should be king!

I mean, we totally redeemed Quentyn right? RIGHT?? Poor guy.[/quote]
Quentyn's a loser, but at least he's well meaning.[/quote]

He just tried to do one great thing and he got bbq-ed for his trouble. Womp womp. He's not misogyny on legs. Though admittedly, the volcano arm is dumb cool.[/quote]

Agreed. Poor Quentyn. Victarion is kind of grimly hilarious because he's such a dumbass, but he is by far the most unpleasant POV character to me and I hate being in his head. I still can't get over the whole "OMG I feel so sorry for myself because my brother made me kill my wife" WTF dude? And I get that maybe that's a Iron Islands cultural thing but fuck it, I can't even deal. Rodrik the Reader should be king![/quote]

Rodrik is the MAN. There is no counter argument.

this is why I love this stuff , Id totally forgotten rheagar actually calls him aegon in the vision, I had it in my head the baby was jon and that his was the song of ice and fire, Aegon is definitely going to kick butt

Wow thats a bit Hyperbole.

Victarion killed his wife yes, he is bad..but that doesn't make him the worst. Tyrion let his wife get gang raped. Hizdar is accused of Poisoning Dany. How many wifes did Craster have ? Don't even get me started on the Frey. Then Gregor Clegane!! . Victarion is no siant , but he is now worse these other folk.

After his wife, he didn't take any other women until the dusky women. (my theory, she might be a female faceless man). He didn't even take a salt wife. When they took the shield islands, and Euron was making the Ladies of Shield islands undress and later get raped, Victorian was disgusted by this, and didn't take part in their humiliation.

Then he didn't have the HOTs for Asha. When he met Asha at Naga's hill, even though they were rivals for the sea stone chair, they were friendly with each other. Asha proposed that they team up and rule together. Victarion didn't guess that she meant to be his hand but instead though did she wish to marry him. Only then did he look her that way. When she clarified, the thought left him.

Victarion is ok with the idea of Thralls, but he is not a slaver. When Euron suggests that they sell captives from shield islands in Volantis, they idea offends him.

Victarion isn't book smart like the reader, he is street smart though. He is not dumb. He managed to keep most of the iron fleet together, delegating tasks and responsibilities between his other Captains. He replenished his losses and will soon bring to bear a might fleet on Meerene.

Victarion is not a narrow minded fundamentalist. He will not let the drowned god be insulted, he did embase R'Hllor. When he heard dany was liberating slaves, he started doing it too. This is me speculating, but him liberating slaves tells me Victarion will treat Dany very differently, he probably won't worship her, but he will treat her right like a queen.

I can keep going ..but i'll stop here.

Nice work, Vic. Well argued. There's something to be said for noticing atrocities and doing nothing, but then, many characters have the morality to know bad things are happening, yet lack the strength or opportunity to do something. Victarion isn't really different.