Mel can't die until after she revives J Snow. After that I don't care (sorry Melisandre fans)

I've never actually met a Melisandre fan. Do these exist in real life?

Loved the episode! You guys are all super funny together

Yes, you have. And yes we do.

Well I didn't assume Team Stannis goes with Team Melisandre.

I can't say I'm a fan of Melisandre but I admire her faith in her cause.

After reading Mel's POV chapter I think she's more multi-faceted than I gave her credit for. I'm biased against religious fundamentalists in general. I don't really like when some Stannis fans blame Mel for all his morally questionable decisions though as this evil woman brainwashing Stannis. He's a big boy responsible for his own decisions. Mel didn't make him do anything - he chose to ally with her for utilitarian reasons.

Anyway ...

I don't think you have to be a Melisandre fan if you are a Stannis fan, I just happen to be both.

She is the character with the least petty/most noble goals in the story. The character most dedicated to light and life over eternal darkness and death for ALL humanity. In most fantasy that would make her a or the hero.

I think reports of her incompetence are way overblown. The fact that she is bluffing a fair amount of the time just makes me respect her enormous stones even more.

Fanatic religious zeal and intolerance is understandably too high a hurdle for many people. On balance, I find her a hugely interesting and compelling character (though in sometimes different ways after her PoV).

Exactly. I think that is a strength in Stannis's favor. He never blames killing Renly on Melisandre working her wiley ways on him. He accepts it and knows it was wrong. That's one reason I admire him, because that is a truly human thing to do.

As you said part of me just dislikes Melisandre because of the fundamental views she has (us or them, with us/against us, no middle ground) which just resonates with me personally.

But like you say some people just pass the whole Shadow Baby thing on Melisandre, that's just not fair. Part of Davos's horror at finding out what she can do and did was his absolute disdain for it, but also the fact that Stannis, the man he admires and follows would allow this to happen.

Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm hardcore hashtag-Team-Mel, but I do rank her highly on the fascination scale. Generally I rank the characters on a two-dimensional map, with one axis for rooting for / against them and the other for finding them interesting / uninteresting. For example, Roose Bolton is a character I despise but am always curious to read about.

Melisandre is a great example of GRRM's success in creating an aura of mystery around a character. Sometimes he tries to hard or it comes off too cheesy (though I always enjoy that just as much, eh Darkstar?), but with Mel it's a great balance of specific, intriguing detail and what-the-eff-is-her-deal. Giving her a POV was a bold move, as it lets George really toe the line of how reliable a narrator she can be.

Hmm. She is definitely not just the 'evil witch lady' that exists in the show that's for sure. I think the actress does a great job but I'm not sure I'm a fan of how they write her a lot of the time. Or the weird dynamic where it looks like she's brainwashing Stannis and she's the 'devil' while Davos is the 'angel'. It'a a little bit heavy handed.

Getting more of her backstory made me a bit more sympathetic to her. And I like that she has some political intelligence in terms of manipulating how she appears to other people (leaving aside the glamour speculation) - she's not just a blind unthinking zealot. She doesn't rank too highly as one of my favourite characters or anything but she's definitely interesting.

That said - if she has to die to bring Jon Snow back then I won't cry too many tears (and I'm not even a big Jon Snow person really)

This, pretty much. I think Melisandre is really interesting, and her POV in Dance was intriguing. And that's pretty much all I look for in fiction, and especially in this series - my favourite characters tend to be the ones I find whole and real and interesting rather than the ones that are good or nice people necessarily. Hence my affection for those crazy Greyjoy uncles also.

Well at least someone is a fan of the Greyjoys. I kind of have to separate who I think is interesting versus who is a good person - sometimes that's the same thing but sometimes not in this series and it hurts my brain. I think Littlefinger is interesting but I also think he is a garbage human being. Same goes for Tywin. I think Jon Snow and Dany are essentially good and well intentioned but they're not super interesting to me.

I just can't even deal with the Greyjoys and the 'nuncles'. Maybe if they weren't called nuncles I would be more on board. I never used to think Asha was that interesting but after reading some other opinions I'm starting to come around to her a bit more. I don't think Victarion is even interesting - he's basically dudebro male entitlement to the max. I just can't.

I think the Greyjoys are more interesting if you view them as a family rather than as individuals. Victarion is grim, I agree, but the relationship between that generation of nuncles is fascinating. They're just so fucked up and dysfunctional, it's like a car crash soap opera.

They definitely have an interesting dynamic. I think I'm just biased about certain things that I can't get past. It's almost like GRRM wanted to find a more unpleasant person to be inside the head of than Theon and gave me Victarion. And he's kind of similar to Theon in his refusal to recognise his own mistakes (although at least Theon eventually realises).

I love Rodrik the Reader though. One of my favourite minor characters. Any character that loves reading is always going to be someone I like (I think that's why I also like Sam).

Yes. I very much agree with this. I'm often flummoxed when people ask me who I like the most or who I hate. I'm more interested in some characters than others, but I don't really look at it as likes and dislikes. Like you say, it's interesting and uninteresting.

Ha, Theon is a ratbag, definitely, but he has one of my favourite character arcs in the whole series (at least, so far). I think Victarion is genuinely too stupid to recognise his own mistakes, while Theon is just the bad decision dinosaur.

Do agree on the Rodrik the Reader love, though, for himself and also because it gives layers to the Ironborn themselves that they're not all battle-axe wielding dullards or crazy religious fanatics.

One of my favorite episodes in a long time, you guys were great! Really enjoyed listening to this