Wow, that was definitely a new experience .

I think I'm with Kyle and Amin on the Tysha thing and judging from reactions by eople like Larry whose main complaint about the show is that there's noone to root for, I think that the show does what it does from time to time to stay afloat on its own terms. I would however, like to add that maybe the reason that Shae got a knife was that last time she had seen Tyrion he'd threatened everyone in the room with death so it's reasonable to assume that if he gets out and looks at her, she's going to assume tht he wants to kill her and of course the Shae from the show has turned to despising him anyway so it makes sense in that way to me. I can understand why peole felt cheated though.

It will be interesting to see how Shae's death is being received by the majority of viewers who have not read the books because I read a review where the reviewer said that Shae's murder made him dislike Tyrion because it was a misogynist murder and I thought: "good, that's how I felt when I read it".

Also, I think having Stannis ride in at the end of episode 9 would have created a problem in that people who don't read the books would probably attribute victory in that particular battle only to Stannis but i'm glad they made the point that the NW can defend itself on its own.

Ashley you are my hero. All your points made me think I was being way too forgiving. Your rage about the Shae stuff was amazing. That was actually the thing that pissed me off the most about this episode (and there were quite a few things that annoyed me).

If they were going to change Shae than they needed to do a much better job with her motivations and making her actions make sense. Sibel Kikelli deserved better. I know she's gotten a lot of hate but I think she's done a great job with what they've given her, particularly in the trial scene. She was doing all the heavy lifting in that scene. I just wish the writing had supported her more in making her actions make sense.

It's so obvious that they wanted to lessen Tyrion's complicity in killing her in cold blood like he does in the book. It's still awful but the fact that she draws the knife first and it's a struggle to the death really bothers me. The Tysha thing annoyed me but not as much as that.

"Forever bitter"

I think this season and season 2 made me rage the most, but I had really big expectations for this season. There were some amazing moments though and some fantastic scenes I will give them that.

Holy Fuck it's Darth Kyle.
This should be an interesting listen.

I wonder what will happen if they decide to send Gregor's head to the Martells next season. Whose head will get attached to Gregor's body? Show watchers will lose their minds...

I do agree with Amin - I think they made the conscious choice to not do the Tysha thing, I don't think it was for a lack of time. I disagree with the choice but I understand the reasoning. I just don't think they did a good job enough job with getting the audience invested in the Shae/ Tyrion relationship if that is what they were going for.

Well, it's not for lack of trying because I remember that last year there were so many Shae/Tyrion moments but people didn't respond to it ultimately because they couldn't make us care about that version of the character.

Anyway great and hilarious episode - even with the bad audio for the first half

For Kyle: What in the show is Tyrion's rationale for going to the room to confront Tywin? For actually killing Tywin?

In the intro he sounded like a transformer to me. Cool effect if it could be harnessed, and deployed at will. Must be the Google bots have gotten to him.

Tywin's prejudice against him his whole life for something he can't do anything about? Seems like a legit reason for Tyrion who has constantly tried to please him. maybe he feels he will never get another chance to confront his father about this issue and he blames Tywin for "making him" murder Shae.

Didn't he already confront Tywin about that? He basically shit away his plea bargain so he could do that already.

I think Tyrion kills Tywin in the show for a number of reasons. First, I think he's basically had it. He tells Tywin - you sentenced me to death and you knew i didnt kill Jeoffrey. How cold is that? His own father. Then its got to be the Shae-Tysha thing. Getting up in the room and seeing Shae on Tywin's bed. And finally, I think Tyrion knows its just a matter of time until they kill him.

It's also possible he just lost it and will regret it later.

Tyrion does state that is THE reason, but it's not true.
Tyrion's champion lost. What exactly is Tywin supposed to do? Acquit him?
Tywin, clearly in the show (and almost as clearly in the books), has no intention of sentencing Tyrion to death. He always wanted to send Tyrion to the Wall.

I think when he tells him that he won't be sentenced to death it's only because Tywin is threatened with death in this situation; even in the books I did not think that he would have sent Tyrion to the Wall. this is the guy who shat on Guest right with the RW so kinslaying is not far off either, no matter how often he talks about family because we know what a hypocrite he is about whoring and so he invites our doubt about pretty much everything else he ever said.

The fact that Tywin sentencing him despite Tyrion being innocent does tie back in with his hysical appearance and I don't think after 4 seasons we need another line of dialogue telling us what Tywin's deal with Tyrion always was.

When I said Tywin has no intention of sentencing Tyrion to death, I meant during the trial proper.
Before Tyrion elects for Trial by Combat. Sorry if that was not clear.

I don't think Tywin actually planned out the details of the Red Wedding so much as assured the Freys and Boltons that they would be pardoned and rewarded for removing Robb.

I do not believe that Tywin is a hypocrite about whoring any more than a father whose son is an alchoholic is a hypocrite for having a glass of wine.

The question is what is Tyrion's deal with Tywin, not the other way around.
If Tywin really wanted Tyrion dead he would be dead long ago.

Tyrion's deal with Tywin on the show seems to be that Tywin's deal with Tyrion is Tyrion's size despite all the capacities and skill that he displayed for 4 years. Viewers know at this point why Tyrion hates Tywin: because Tywin hates Tyrion for no goddamn legit reason.

Almost (almost) every single interaction between Tyrion and Tywin through out the show makes me think Tyrion has plenty of reason to head to Tywin's room before he leaves. Whether or not his intention was to kill him or just have a nice privy side chat. Shit hit the fan once Shae appeared and any rational thinking flew out the window. He confronts a father that has hated him and treated him like (not gold) shit his entire life. Then he insults the women that he loves (yes he just killed her, but he loved her too. Love is a messed up thing. We all know this.) And (in my opinion) lies through his teeth about Tyrion not going to die .....and I see plenty of reason for the confrontation and eventual killing. Not to mention that Tywin did have Tysha (whore or not) raped by lots and lots of men and then forced Tyrion to rape her too. I'm not sure a day would pass after that, that I wouldn't want to kill the man responsible.

I'm more curious how Tyrion knew where the secret entrance was without Varys telling him.

Because he's a wizard.

In the books he has the actual reason of new information regarding Tysha as a catalyst to confront Tywin and a genuine desire to gain further information on her location.
In my opinion, the removal of Tysha changes completely the context of his motivations while incongruously retaining his actions.



The active removal of Varys' complicity is bizarre choice #1823

Didn't Varys just give Tyrion all the secret tunnel maps back in Season 2, and Tyrion just remembered? That seems right.

floored at kyle's indifference to tysha. one of hte more POWERFUL pieces of tyrion's character development. that reveletiion from jaimie is a FUCKING CATASTROPHIC blow. just cannot fathom in what universe kyle thinks tysha is a throw away detail. never have i disagreed more with an opinion on this podcast since chase wouldnt shut the fuck up about robert not having black enough hair. im glad ashley and amin stood up to him but jesus christ. ps. happy birthday kyle.

THANK YOU.


on top of that tyrion finds out the ONE mother fucking person he could trust (jamie) the ONE motherfucking person he could trust has kept and played a part in creating the most hurtful, destructive, terrorizing thing about his life. the tysha incident fucking destroyed tyrion's self image and self worth, it's what made him a constant cynic in the world. after learning of jamie's betrayal tyrion feels utterly alone, he literally has lost the will to live. it was THIS that sent tyrion down that spiral of self loathing and depression in Dance. not killing his father, not shae, it was THIS. he can't get tysha out of his mind for the ENTIRETY of the book. tysha was the one that proved to tyrion that a regular woman could love him, that there was a place in this world for him outside the nightmare of being an outsider.


i just dont understand how in god's name this isn't obvious to everyone. maybe this was just a really powerful moment for me, and i just expected eveyrone else to interpret it hte same way i did. this was tyrions red wedding. he was stunned. he had to resort to any little thing possible to hurt jamie back including hitting him in the face and trying ot convince him he HAD killed joffrey. tyrion was thinkinng of anything he could do do hurt jamie, the one he loved the most, because he was THAT devastated..


ok ok sorry for ranting.

I understand including Tysha could boggle things down, but not including her and having Jaime/Tyrion leave as best bros doesn't explain why Tyrion would suddenly get an angry look on his face and head to the tower of the hand instead of getting out of dodge. Tyrion has no motivation to go into Tywin's room yet he decides to pop in anyways. Lying to him that she was a whore and having his guards rape her was a pretty good reason why he would want to confront Tywin before leaving.

In the show Tyrion says, "you sentenced me to death". Well no shit, Tyrion. You elected trail by combact to screw your dad's plans up and lost in front of hundreds of people. Did you expect Tywin to slap his leg laughing and say, "It's cool, son! Even though you lost in this massive arena in front of hundreds of on lookers including the high septon, I'm just going to pardon you and say you win anyway." Come on Tyrion, you're smarter than that

Why? It is not a character that is going to appear in the TV show. Most TV Viewers would be saying "Who the fuck is Tysha?"

Does Tysha decide the Iron Throne or have anything to do with the struggle of Fire and Ice? She just isn't important. I would have liked some mention, thatshe was Trion's wife, but don'tcare either way, unless she is going to be in the story, I have no investment in the character.

Now I would be pissed if we never get any build-up about Rhaegar or Lynna, since we are likely getting a Cersei flashback of some kind. Those characters are dead, but they were a core part of greater events.

I do agree with the hosts the skeleton attack scene looked pretty cheap. They should have used wights, not Skeletons. I can tolerate the Children throwing fireballs, because there was likely an even worse cost alternative.

Look thinking about it I'm not as bothered by the Tysha thing as I was initially. But I do totally agree that they have minimised Tyrion's complicity and descent into 'darkness' - and that was so evident by how they handled Shae's death. She never got to challenge or call him out or plead for her life. It was all about Tyrion. And no I don't think the fact that Shae wasn't exactly a well drawn out character in the books excuses it frankly.

And I totally agree with Ashley about Cersei. I love you Kyle, but it seems perfectly fine to keep calling them out on the rape scene that has obviously been retconned like it never happened. I don't see how their intent about that scene matters. Within the context of the show itself without looking at directors BS opinions, Jaime raped Cersei and that has been completely ignored.

I do think it's perfectly possible to have them go against each other next season though after Tywin's death - which makes it even weirder to throw in this unnecessary complication of them reconciling.

I have to wonder aryastark7330 since the show is only 7 seasons, if they just are going to skip Tyrion's decent into darkness. We don't know if George is going to have a redemption arc for Tyrion down the road, that maybe he and Jaime are not going to be enemies, or how that plays out, so they basically are skipping it. This might even be a spolier, that perhaps Tyrion is not going to stay mad a Jaime now that I think about it, or it isn't important.

Tyrion will be a moody and bitter and episode or two, but Varys and Illryio push towards Daenerys, get him back in the game of thrones, to get that arc going. I do think they are whitewashing Tyrion a bit to give the TV Viewers someone to cheer for in the show. I also think there are cynical business reasons, it looks great for the show when Dinklage gets Emmy nominations.

The thing is - I would love to see Dinklage get to be unlikeable and awful. He has the chops to pull it off. I do think it is still really dark for his character in the show though so a lot of this is a case of knowing what's missing - which you obviously wouldn't know if you haven't read the books. I haven't looked at any Unsullied reviews or anything so I can't really judge what they thought about Tyrion's motivations here. The annoying thing to me is that they haven't shown Tywin to be as douchey as he really is. I think Charles Dance is great but sometimes they have overused him, made him almost too 'nice' (probably the wrong word). He's not the terrifying cold man he was to me in the books - but that's also because we mainly saw him through Tyrion's POV. I understand Charles Dance is a great actor and you need to use him but sometimes I wish they would be more disciplined about having the actors serve the story and not the other way round if that makes sense. I did love his comment that he wanted a 'fuck you Tywin' funeral to start off next season. He knows Tywin was an asshole.

I do think taking out Varys and his possibly complicity here was a weird choice. I didn't need a whole scene of Tyrion struggling to climb a ladder but some link between 'bye Jaime' and Tyrion popping his head out of the floor (which made me laugh for some weird reason) would have been nice.

...nah.

This made me think that Tywin wrote a letter to get Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion at the battle of the blackwater... that is, if he had it so well planned out and he wanted to get rid of Tyrion eventually. It sort of reminds me of Dune, where Baron Harkonnen wanted to knock off one of his idiot nephews after misgoverning Dune a bit so he could install his competent nephew who would look like a saint by comparison.