Good episode, although I think the book's worth only 2.5 LC (1 LC for the art + 1 for the effort + 0.5 for the potentially meaningless and and/or fake History...you know 'cause maesters). The fact that we get yet again mostly détails about the Targaryens and just a couple of pages about other Houses is also disappointing, since I could care less about the incestuous wars fought with dragons.

I think the book has subpar writing, and the premise is a bit nonsensical (seriously in 800 years people still haven't written down a targaryen History book?). I didn't want to give money to people like Linda whose online rhetoric I find at times to be borderline, if not actually, misogynystic (if Orson Scott Card can get called out for homophobia online I think I can call out the authors of this book for online behaviour too) and I don't want 2 fans to become synonymous with a world they have not created themselves and on whose back they clearly want to make money (which they can do but whether or not one chooses to do so is a different thing).

However, those latter points do not enter into consideration in my rating because I do not have to reach for these arguments in order to say why I have to take off points: it just helps me not to feel too guilty when I criticise the book. Having looked at, and read, parts of the book so far, I'd say that if I wanted to read inaccurate or inconsistent History, I'd read every Republican's book ever published (there are no facts, it's all just opinions). The maester aspect to me felt like somewhat of a safety net to shield the authors from accusations of inconsistencies and/or bad writing that cannot live up to the low standard that I am used to with Martin in his prose but he at least writes interesting characters. Here it felt like I couldn't get to know anyone in much detail. Given the 10000+ characters in this world that should not necessarily surprise me but it hints at the limitations of a work like this that aims to go into most of the 'relevant' culturesfor the story. maybe a more in-depth portrait of one or two regions at a time might have worked better. The art in this book is gorgeous and I credit the artists a lot here to make this book fun to look at. Sadly, it's not enough to save this from the bad writing for me. I have gone on record and stated that I don't enjoy Martin's prose now and again and this here feels sometimes much worse. At least with the Silmarillion there was a story and characters like Feanor and melkor who you felt something about by the end but with this it's just too cold and distanced to give me any real insight and reading actual History might actually help me learn something about myself and my culture but this? There are sayings, if not outright sentences, taken from LOTR and other fantasy (the dragonlords delved too greedily and too deep...seriously, the dwarves from the House of Durin should sue). The characters named in this book don't often get more than a single adjective or adverb to describe them, which makes them seem much more one-or-two-dimensional than I would have hoped going in, given the long time it took for this book to get published. I would be less severe were I able to know more about the POV from whose perspective the book is written but the fact is that beyond some political bias there is not much here.

In the end, a long wait for something that, while not terrible, is in the end inconsequential and mediocre. Beautiful but mediocre. But as I said, '1 LC' for the effort. If you want to complete your ASOIAF collection, go ahead and if you enjoy this more power to you but just know that there are those of us out there that don't just look for interesting content but that actually care about the quality of the writing itself that delivers the content and just throwing in some pretty artwork and saying 'maester POV' is not going to cut it for me, I sadly have to say.

NB: I might have to say that the amazon review segment was partly great fun, and partly awkward, given that I believe in a free market of ideas and opinions and so looking at irrational 1-star reviews might be fun but it's a very easy target that noone can miss. Aiming at well-argued opinions that dislike the book is harder to do.

NBB: If you feel that I am being too harsh I can understand that but at least it'll spawn an interesting debate.

So this is how I felt bad out that opening segment:

I lost a little respect for this podcast when you trashed the one star reviews. I agree that you ought not criticise a book for being something it isnt but why go out of your way to mock that on your show rather than focus on what you enjoyed? It made it sound like a set up for a hagiographic defense of the book rather than a genuine independent review. I think it would’ve been better served as an after show if at all.

There are genuine criticisms of the book, about overlapping content, or the success of the conceit, which would’ve been far more interesting to discuss. Engaging with the concerns of the genuine fans rather than giving oxygen to trolls.

Respectfully, Bina007

Reply

Also, Mimi asked what reason one would have to read this series if one is not into worldbuilding. I don't know why that would be anyone's business other than the specific reader in question. The reasons for reading these books are each person's own reasons and they are not all the same, as Amin pointed out. But I'd still question the idea that if one reads the books only for the characters instead of the writing or the worldbuilding one's opinion is not as welcome.

I don't read the series for world building. I read it for the human stories, the character arcs and the politics, and I love the echoes of the war of the roses and the anarchy. As with LOTR I love the hints of a deeper world, but I don't want to know about it in depth. In a way it detracts from the mythic echoes that I like if I have it all worked out and laid out for me. That's just how I approach and enjoy the books: character first and world second. I don't think it's less valid than people who like the world building. Each to their own!

In hindsight, moving the amazon review chat to the aftershow might have been the better move. As you may have noticed, it wasn't a planned portion of the episode and I didn't open up amazon myself, it was one of the things that can come up during the course of a recording. That said, I wasn't going to cut it completely, like Beric, I prefer as much free speech on our podcast as possible.

Not sure if it is too meta to talk about the criticism of our criticism of 1 star criticism? I'll just say, as it was unplanned, it was the gut reaction to the 1 star reviews that came up at first glance, based on 1) misunderstanding of what the book was openly meant to be 2) misunderstanding on the writing structure. Surely there is more in depth criticism of the book at amazon that we did not happen to see, or at the forums here, or on VOK, but as you said, we mainly focused on our own reactions.

This is just inaccurate as to what the premise of the world book is and it's the second thread you've said it on, Beric. What gives? I get that you don't much like Elio and Linda and I mostly do, but from where I'm sitting this seems like it falls under "you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts" to me.

Elio posted a big long explanation in the VOK episode thread of what the premise is meant to be.

Ok, I was not aware of that eplanation or maybe I just read the beginning in a superficial way but that does not change my opinion of the writing itself.

In regards to the conversation where I talked about the world of ice and fire's worldbuilding focus, Mimi was talking about the world of ice and fire's description, not the main series itself. Perhaps she said this at another point in the podcast, but you are not accurately recalling what Mimi said at that particular point.

Really appreciate the response Amin. I should've added that I enjoyed the main part of the episode very much!

Gotcha. I wouldn't dream of saying it should change your opinion, just wanted you (and others reading) to know.

So no one asked the really important questions in this episode.




Was really happy to hear all 4 hosts so excited. Especially Ash all giddy!

you know that you now have 666 posts and given your profile picture that's either hilarious or weirdly convenient .

And here I thought the major complaint about this episode was going to be how I was unable to pronounce thesaurus.

I checked those Amazon reviews the morning the book was supposed to be out. A lot of them really were trolls (probably all of them at that point). There were more 1 star reviews than 2,3,4,&5 star reviews put together. It was an organized effort from the Elio and Linda hate-club. I assume iswintercoming.com was the source of most of them. I have no problem with anyone trashing the 1 star reviews, so long as it's entertaining.

Don't believe me? See for yourself: http://www.iswintercoming.com/the-world-of-ice-and-fire-t2326.html
(I'm gonna go take a shower. Being on that site makes me feel unclean *shudders*)

In a moment of shallowness, I've paused for a mind-boggle at Amin's statement "I'm trying to stretch it so that Tywin still gets in there".

Took me a second to remember what he actually meant when he said that. It's still not a great image.

Except that a lot of the 5-star reviews were also trolls but of the opposite opinion as a result of all of the 1-star trolls because they wanted to even things out, leading me to believe that the truth about the book's quality is somewhere in the middle.

If one is a fan of the series one should be true to one's real feelings in their criticism, no matter which side you fall on with regard to the quality of this book and to do so you have to be honest with yourself how you really feel about the book. Just giving it 5 stars because it has Martin's name on it or giving it 1 star because it has Elio's name on it is not looking at this objectively. Just because one wants to defend their favourite author from legitimate criticism or tear down the book because Elio and Linda wrote it is not gonna help anybody who'd want to get real advice on whether or not to bother with this book. At the same time Elio and Linda are just fans like the rest of us and hence getting involved in the writing process in connection with the world seems a bit strange to me. Wouldn't fans want to read the pure version of the story or supplementary material as delivered entirely by the author of the main story himself, whose works they so enjoy?

This leads to the, in my mind understandable, issue that some people might have a problem therefore with someone else contributing to Martin's world, despite his permission, simply because they want him to deliver on his own. If he set expectations too high all by himself he'd have to fulfill them all by himself anyway. As a fan of this series I'd prefer not to touch the author's world, even if he offered me the opportunity to do so, because it's not my creation and hence I feel it's not my place to help him write it. I'm not the writer who determines even part of the content of the world just because I like the world a lot and know a lot about it. I want to be able to review the work objectively and leave the writing to him because he has to be able to deliver on his own and if he creates a world that is too big for him to keep straight without outside help then he should still write it on his own to show us that he can deliver what he promises, and if he can't then he deserves criticism for trying to bite off more than he can chew.

Overall, I'd rather have gotten a book that focuses on the smaller Houses that are not major players in the main story because that would be an actual contribution to the world itself, if we're going to have it. Whereas the Targaryens, Starks and Lannisters are fine, we know a lot about them already and so House Bolton, Mormont, Umber, etc. are not really given a lot more insight despite needing it a bit more than the big ones and considering the book is 300+ pages long, having a page or two dedicated to those would have made me more interested in the whole thing. That's a preference thing but one'd expect that from something that presents itself as something like an encyclopedia or a companion piece and hence it's a missed opportunity I need to point out here. It also doesn't help that the story is not finished yet and usually books like this one come out once the story's over because then the information contained therein is no longer subject to changes later on and that helps these kinds of books being enjoyable on their own. A it stands it's good for sustaining fan cravings until TWOW gets published.

I also want to say just because someone is a really big fan of the original series, does not mean their contribution can live up to that in terms of writing quality because being a dedicated fan does not equal a great writer and this book suffers heavily imo from bad writing (ex: 'so do empires end and others arise' on p.14....o-ok, that's an epic sentence I guess, even though it says very little and should't that be 'so do some empires end and others arise'? I dunno, it's probably the maester's fault for writing so poorly...damn you budget cuts in the Citadel department).

Ultimately, because the book comes at a time when the series is not finished it cannot actually be a complete History because the story can still prove or disprove whatever has been said in this book and hence it at best is one or two maesters' temporary version of that History but since I know very little to nothing about these maesters that's not much help because I am not much wiser about their characters and personalities than I was at the beginning.

Anyway, kids, don't make fun of people for not liking what you like and vice versa. Kumbaya and all that good stuff.

Wow. I just read that thread for 30 seconds and it makes me hate the internet. I definitely won't ever feel bad about saying anything even vaguely negative about it in the future. Makes me appreciate House Manwoody even more and these forums in particular knowing that we don't even come close to that level of vitriol.

I haven't had time to listen to the episode yet so I'll wait to chime in on this when I do.

That's awesome, I just switched it yesterday from the vampire squid. I had no idea and then I quickly ruined it on another thread, because I can't shut up. You see, if we give the proper praise to Oklabaphomet, he gives us gifts even we don't expect them. I'm going to go watch Nashville and eat sweet and sour chicken in his unholy name.

ETA: I suddenly realizing how great it would be to photoshop Ashley, Mimi, Kyle and Amin onto the face of the goatlord there and put the podcast sigil over the pentagram.

I only read one page but I admit the "water damaged wild cards" made me lol.
Haters gonna hate.

"Hey, people need trash cans."

"He was the rightful pawn!"

Kyle is the best.

Look at those Zhorses!!!

Oh Kyle

Yeah, I really liked that too, Amin was giving Greg a run for fast talking at one point. It's nice to agree with the group that really likes something for once. I appreciate the inclusion of stuff like the 1-Star reviews review, it heightens the sense that you're listening to a bunch of friends who occasionally get sidetracked and make catty remarks rather than an over-produced piece intended for the widest possible audience.


I'm actually thinking of trying to do an Aegon IV thing, there's some good synergy there with Illyrio.

I think you can re-use some of the rings. You should talk with Ashley and her group. If you coordinated it, you could have a good shot at the group cosplay prize.

Nice to know that even Amin had trouble taking the Kermits of House Tully seriously.

I really enjoyed your discussion. It's refreshing to have the four hosts totally geek out and be so enthusiastic about it. Kind of makes me feel I was too harsh on it off the bat, but I'm definitely coming around.

Mimi-Eric Ripert shops in our bookstore regularly. I will tell him that he looks like Aegon the Conqueror next time he comes in and see how he reacts.

A grand show ladies and gents, so much Really great to have the band back together, can't wait to get more!!

Great episode guys, really enjoyed it. Also nice to see that no amount of Yandel's "logic" and "reasoned arguments" will dissuade Mimi, Kyle and Ashley from supporting Daemon Blackfyre "the rightful pawn".

Great to hear the group together again! As to the amazon reviews I enjoyed that portion for what it was, entertaining. I mean if it happened on a critical discourse podcast I might be offended but it fell right into the wheelhouse of westeros and dick jokes. Good episode to all.