A Podcast Of Ice and Fire
http://podcastoficeandfire.com/forum/

Episode 233: Orientalism
http://podcastoficeandfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5794		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  gsdg [ Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Episode 233: Orientalism
Quote:
Episode 233 for the week of September 2, 2018. A panel of returning guests from the Vassals of Kingsgrave convene to discuss the history of Orientalism in Western fantasy and whether it is an issue in A Song of Ice and Fire.


Interesting discussion!

Another issue with how Dany thinks of Meereen is that she and Brown Ben Plumm have this inside joke regarding her wearing the tokar:
Quote:
Man wants to be the king o' the rabbits, he best wear a pair o' floppy ears.

It read to me as a mix of Dany not wanting to don the symbol of the masters and kind of being dragged to make even the smallest of compromises with Meereen at the beginning.

Do we have any examples of how any Meereenese who aren't former slave masters or former slaves think about Dany's occupation? The closest I can think of is the Shavepate, but he is still a noble and just one person at that.

I'd be interested in hearing what you guys have to say about the Others being presented to the audience (and perceived by the characters that interact with them) as the ultimate antagonist whose motives are so far opaque.

I'll give it another listen and come up with more things.
Author:  Khal Wadege [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 233: Orientalism
Embarrassing Confession, when I first read ADWD I missed that first joke line, so whenever I read Dany chapters and she says "time to put on my floppy ears", I thought that bunny ears were an actual part of Meereenese royal attire!

To be fair with the Tokar, it is the clothing embodiment of a slave society, you have to hold it one place with one hand, and can only walk in it. The only people who can wear a Tokar are Masters who have lots of slaves to do work for them, so I can understand Dany being reluctant to wear it because of what it represents.

Regarding Meereen, Steven Atwell has argued that George's primary influence has been a post civil-war southern society, he compares the 'Sons of the Harpy' to the Ku Klux Klan with their attacks on military but mostly civilian targets.

Something I would like to see an Essay on is how Martin portrays the 'non-eastern' Othered societies like the Ironborn, the Wildlings and the North vs 'eastern' othered societies.
Author:  gsdg [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 233: Orientalism
Khal Wadege wrote:
To be fair with the Tokar, it is the clothing embodiment of a slave society, you have to hold it one place with one hand, and can only walk in it. The only people who can wear a Tokar are Masters who have lots of slaves to do work for them, so I can understand Dany being reluctant to wear it because of what it represents.


I agree and I generally side with Dany on that one. But at the same time people can definitely interpret it the other way, especially if they were being vigilant about these kind of attitudes to begin with.

Khal Wadege wrote:
Something I would like to see an Essay on is how Martin portrays the 'non-eastern' Othered societies like the Ironborn, the Wildlings and the North vs 'eastern' othered societies.


+1.

Between the Slaver's Bay plot, the aftermath of Robert's Rebellion, and especially the Sons of the Dragon novella, it seems like there is a bit of a theme in the books of how the right of conquest doesn't mean you can just do what you want, which feeds into the larger question of "What is Aragorn's tax policy?".

@Shoeshiner you might be interested in Ursula K. Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness, which tries to move beyond Fantasy Counterpart Culture tropes. It still has an "Othering gaze" since the narrator is a diplomat from Earth, but off the top of my head, it sounds closer to what you might be looking for in terms of fantasy.
Author:  Shoeshiner [ Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Episode 233: Orientalism
Ah yeah, when we were talking the "Other" as presented in Said, it would have been good to talk about the actual Others in the books! To Martin's credit, they are much harder to pin down in terms of cultural stereotypes, but we also know so little about them at this point that it's hard to fathom. The TV show White Walkers just seem like generic bad guys, with a leader who seems to just want to take over the world, mwahahahaha. In the books, they are almost like a force of nature than anything human.

And yeah, Le Guin is a great shout, especially because she brings in another perspective that is often lacking in fantasy: gender. I will get to The Left Hand of Darkness and other Hainish Cycle books someday!
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 6 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/