Listen to part of the episode...

I really have to reconsider my 4.5 lemoncakes for Blackwater because Ashley brought up a valid point. All the things I didn't like came from changes made to the character and George just doing the best with what was in TV contiguity.



When they were discussing the Hound and Sansa, all I heard was:

I am only 35 minutes in and I am already tired of Larry.



Agree completely. It seems like he doesn't even consider that he might not be absolutely right about everything, and I think he is wrong about a lot of things. I don't mind when people have different opinions than I do but hubris is annoying. If Larry doesn't come on anymore it wouldn't bother me at all.

I have to agree with the criticism of Larry. This is coming from someone who actually still listens to his review (after his Sansa tantrum). It seems he's set on a fixed set of values and just cannot comprehend the different perspectives of other opinions. I guess partly it's from his background doing reviews on manga/animes where characters are mostly all formulaic. They might have red hair, purple hair or green hair but will be based on a set of "personality traits" to define X character. My theory on his dislikes of some GoT character is that most of them do not fall under the character archtypes of most fiction work.

He liked Ned, Drogo, Arya etc.. not because they were the "good guys" but because those characters made "sense" to him in his anime-esque view. His attitude towards Sansa is a prime example of why he just can't identify with her, because Sansa is not a character but closer to being a RL person. Seriously, I wasn't a big fan of book Sansa. I'm ambivalent towards the TV version as well, but she's one of the few characters that is very realistically portrayed imo. For every heroic character type, there's a thousand plain ones. Put any random 13year old girl of similar background in her situation and 99% of the time you'll get the TV version. Though she's a favorite, Arya is not the normal typical girl and in a lot of ways comes out as an obvious fictional protagonist. I'm really liking the way George is taking his time with the Sansa arc. My prediction is she'll become a big game player on par with Varys/LF, certainly above the mid tier schemers like Cercei. Just like how it takes years and years to become a badass fighter training, it'll take a lot of re-education from LF to change Sansa into the potentially badass she may become later on.

So yeah, I think Larry is completely off base with his "everyone should be behaving X way in this situation, otherwise they are retarded" stance. I was rolling on the floor when he asked the other podcasters if they ever experienced a brush with death. Did he not see Jeremy Davies in Saving private Ryan? Not everyone reacts the same way to crisis. He expect the 13 year girl whose been pampered all her life to suddenly become a total badass...

I'm usually content to lurk rather than participate. I only registered to see if other podcast listeners found Larry as overbearing as I did.

Got about an hour into it and couldn't listen anymore.

I'm reluctant to offer this criticism because I understand that each podcast published is the result of a great deal of work. But from what I can tell from listening so far, you guys seem receptive to fan feedback, so... for what it's worth.

Regards,
payback.

I haven't listened to the whole thing yet ( my daily commute is only 30min each way) but I agree that Larry is kinda getting on my nerves this time. The "brush with death" part confused me...if everyone went on a personal vendetta after having a close call or witnessing a very personal death than there would be a world of badass soldiers instead of many vets having post war traumas. Most people go into shock or shut down when confronted with trauma...that's what makes heroes so special.

I agree that Sansa is a character most like a real person, people always assume that everything will work out OK and alot of times they only realize that there is no hope or escape until it's too late. Real people have fear and fear makes people shut down emotionally...all you need to do is read about 1940's Germany and Poland to understand that. I think Larry is being very unrealistic in his assumptions so far.

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with everyone else about Larry.

I loved Larry's guest spots last season. I started watching his reviews after the Ned reaction, and I really enjoyed them until after the Sansa rant. He seemed to lose heart after that. I adore Sansa, but I wasn't at all offended by the rant. It's a common and reasonable view to have given his exposure. I'm sorry that people were rude to him.

That said, since then he's been remarkably angry and condescending in his reviews. I don't need to be told how he is going to organize the review 10 times before he starts. I don't need to be asked if I understand. I don't need him to say the same thing 5 times, and then say the same thing again is slightly different words 10 more times. I do not need to be asked if I follow him. Nothing he is saying is complicated or difficult. And as others have pointed out - he tries to be a know-it-all, but lacks the knowledge to be one.

But ultimately, I just really fucking hate it when people talk over poor Ashley just because shes nice enough not to just run them over and I think Larry interrupted her or talked over her to say the exact same thing 5 times in a row when Ashley actually had something interesting to say. He didn't act like that in his season 1 guest spots. He was polite in those.

I really liked him before, and I really hope that he can get over some of his anger. I am going to stay with him at least through the finale, but if he talks to his audience like we're mouth-breathing, shit flinging, missing links that somehow can't understand the concept of more than 1 gate - I am out.

The rest of the episode was wonderful as always and the aftershow had me rolling! Stefan's reaction to the bathtub pic is one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

Great podcast guys, and cheer up Larry!

(In a hasty gabble) Ditto, ditto, and ditto.

lol, when Amin said he thought the avatar gave away the answer to the Bronn/Hound question I was pretty sure it was you!

I don't have a problem with anyone ranting about their dislike of a character. Ever. I'm not going to require you to like someone.

I really like Larry's reviews, but he has a very distinct personality, and I feel like he's upping it to deal with people who have criticized him, because that's his self-defense mechanism. If you don't like him, better get away because he's taking it to 11.

So I'm just going to say I really liked the episode, and get mimi and kyle back on there!
(this is where I put linecolm's very true remark about everyone just wanting you guys back, not trying to disrespect your time etc etc)

Not to beat on a dead horse here but I'm kind of disappointed at how PC the podcast was while Larry was there. Yes, he was overly sensitive and quite vocal with his views (which to be fair was asked obviously) but it seemed everyone was kind of keeping themselves in check. Part of the reason why I love it here is how everyone is "keeping it real". Whether it's inappropriate innuendos or just thinking out loud, everyone had a real voice on the issues with the series. So it was kind of odd that the early part of the podcast seemed a bit strained. It's almost as if you guys knew he might go off on a 15min rant about how everyone in the internet sucks, so just kept giving him soft lob balls for him to hit. Almost trying too hard to make him likable

I realize my view may be in the minority but I wouldn't put up with people like Larry, when someone crosses the line you need to slap them back to their side. This is why I think having Mimi there would put Larry in his best behavior cause he knows if he starts spouting off that Mimi would roast him alive Aerys style .

PS: Amin, I love you in a platonic way but if you're gonna host this, you need to take out the manwoody club once in a while

My episode theries...

Kyle, alas, was in his cups at the Inn of the Crossroads during the episode. Mimi was last seen entering the House of Black and White. Gods be good, I pray the Mother returns her unhurt. Unlike Chase who entered the House, choose to drink, and slept the long dream at the foot of the Stranger.

LOL. Now I'm a little concerned that the next episode is called "Valar Morghulis".

Loved this from start to finish. Could you please post that bath tub link? Although some are hard on Larry even at half enthusiasm he's just fine by me and as someone who came to the books just before the show, I do identify with his frustrations over nerd rage. That said, the conversation was great and I loved all the reviews from the different fans.

...but Khaleesi, everyone knows Chase is Daario. It is.. known

He would spend hours making sure his beard was just that right shade of blue, otherwise his nerd rage would overcome himself and his head would explode.

Ashley actually has a very high quality headset. Most of the time the audio quality is really good for her, but for some reason it goes into robot mode every once in a while. We are looking into the issue - mainly because she deserves to get the full value out of her mic. Actually Mimi and I have both both some good microphones as well recently

(though I haven't been able to use mine a lot due to travelling and my internet itself is going to be slow until the fall). We've all invested over $100 each in our podcasting equipment lately which makes the skype issues (and itunes issues) we've had recently annoying, but what can you do? I can only take on so much on my plate and I am looking into alternative recording programs: for call-ins and guests skype will remain the main medium.

In regards to feedback on episodes, we welcome it as long as it is constructive and mainly it has been so that is good. Larry has his lovers and his haters and people in between. Some people want him on every TV episode, some want him on none. We figured a couple a season was a good compromise, mainly because managing and recording a spoiler free podcast is difficult to do and we like to talk about the show in relation to the books. Keep in mind some of our listeners (not an insignificant amount) found and find the podcast through his youtube reviews and plugs about our podcast. Not something that would be worth it if we personally found him annoying, but we do enjoy chatting with him and having him on the podcast. If you don't like him that is fair and feel free to skip to the spoiler-full aftershow which takes up about half the episode.

yeah i listened to all of this weeks ep enjoyed it even though it wasnt edited (which would have taken forever) it was cool to see up quick.
i know youve mentioned that youll do an ep about the book beyond the wall
but what about the rpg game just wonderin?

I just thought it was funny when he said all anger comes from jealousy... I was like so someone hits me from behind in a car and I'm jealous. WTF?

I like to hear everyone's opinion as Larry is entitled to it but he does kind of seem less enthusiastic as other people have mentioned. But I do also like to have the opinion of someone who hasn't read the book. Larry is the only guy who has been on the podcast since the beginning of the HBO adaptation that the podcast has checked in with so from that aspect so you would lose an interesting view if he wasn't to be back.

Welp. I stand out in a crowd....

Was there anything else that happened with the Stefan call that got edited out? He seemed very very confused with the bathtub photo. That was the funniest part of the episode.

I feel incredibly honoured to have been a part of something so historic!

Not that anyone cares what I think but, Larry RR Williams is not your bitch. I think it is perfectly reasonable that he has less enthusiasm during this season than he had during last season. I appreciate him not faking it.

I said before the season that I was not a huge fan of Larry on the podcast because the tiptoeing around spoilers does not allow him or the hosts to play to their strengths. I thought his appearances on the podcast were better this year than last, and that Ep 80 was his best. :shrug:

(In slower more coherent gabble) Yes, yes and very yes.

the potatoes care FTWard...............the potatoes care.............

And Potatoes are amazing!

I'm Irish its automatic okay.

I thought it was a great episode. I agree that Larry came off as a bit abrasive (talking over people, etc.), but there were stacks of people, it was an explosive episode, and this is Skype. The only thing he said that I found irritating was his "people who hate me are just jealous" and "all critics are haters" diatribes (although GRRM himself has used that latter one). Who knows, maybe he was having a bad day, or was stressed out by something in his life. Apart from that though, one of my favourite episodes so far. And I think it is important to have a non-reader, to steer the conversation back to what was on screen, rather than what was on the page.

Great episode, props to Amin and Ashley for lasting 5 hours and for Amin editing it so quickly.


I hope you realize I was just joking, it really isn't that bad. I can see the frustration considering yall put all that money into new mics.

I love Cosmia playing drunk Cersei. Awesome!

Potatoes? Get the fuck out

this is Song of Ice and Fire.

Listening to this episode and the call ins, I totally realised that I was home when you all recorded! If I had had you guys on Skype..... damn! Haha.

Will you guys be recording on different days once the season is over? I'd love jump in for a call in after-show, but time differences work against me...

Also LOVED that Tom was from New Zealand, I nearly cheered! Your accent is so familiar... I'm Aussie, so it was weird to be digging a kiwi accent instead of bagging it out. :p

Great episode, and I may be one of the few that listened ALL the way to the end. I have a really boring job, so this epsiode managed to get me through one whole day. Listening to the backlog of 70 episodes did get me an official Internet warning at work... but totally worth it!

It was a great episode, even without Kyle and Mimi :p

I dunno. That was my least-favorite part of the episode, and quite possibly my least-favorite part of all the (relatively few) episodes I've yet listened to. I had already heard the bulk of the complaints about Sansa (and the complaints about people who complained about the complaining), so for me this was mostly more of the same, only louder. The ranting here and at other times seemed to obstruct conversation and humor -- it got in the way of what I love about APOIAF.

I feel like a tool for criticizing the first episode to include my <strike>dulcet tones</strike> staticy mumble. (I am enjoying most of the episode, as usual; it was great to be on, and I can't imagine how much work it must have been to post it so quickly.) So let me try to add something constructive by saying that the reason I like Sansa's character is precisely because she's unlikeable, especially in the beginning. I appreciate the following perspective (which I believe I'm paraphrasing from an interview of Joe Abercrombie, but I honestly can't remember): Unlikeable characters can be the most interesting and enjoyable, because they typically have the most realistic flaws, and the most room to grow (or at least develop). Several posts in this thread have already made similar points, so I guess it doesn't matter that I can't remember who to credit for first introducing me to this view.

That said, this is a matter of taste, and your mileage may vary. I barely forced myself through The Magicians, simply because I couldn't stand reading about any of the characters. So even though I don't agree with criticism of Sansa's character, I certainly don't object to it.

With Sansa, one of her initial flaws is that she lives in a fantasy world (sorry), clinging to romantic illusions that leave her ill-equipped to deal with reality. I greatly enjoy seeing this beaten out of her, especially through her interactions with Sandor, who had any illusions burned out of him in such dramatic fashion. This interplay is what SanSan means to me, as opposed to a 'shipping thing.

It's the characters and their development that I love about the series, and especially about the Blackwater TV episode. This episode impressed me so much because almost all of the main characters who appeared in it -- Sandor, Tyrion, Cersei, Joffrey, Sansa -- had to face crises of character and make fundamental decisions about themselves. We've only seen a bit of this sort of thing so far this season (most notably from Theon, whose character I'm appreciating a lot more now than I did when I read the books), and nowhere near so much all at once and all tied together so well. Hopefully next week we'll get something similar for Jon and Dany to conclude their stretched-out story arcs.

For me, the battle and the special effects in Blackwater, while visually amazing, mainly served the purpose of making these characters' crises and decisions feel real and important. (So the discussion in the podcast about whether Stannis should have attacked different gates, or more gates, or strung out his ships, or sent out more scouts, or led from the rear, or thrown people over the wall... that didn't much interest me.) Since I seem to have circled back around to where I began (being a tool), I'm going to bail now before I get into any more trouble.