Just started reading the book today. The first essay (Elio and Linda's) was great. Looking forward to the rest (I think Alyssa's is next).

I have a pet theory that a lot of the power expressed by women in the series is either in response to or a mimicry of male power (Dany, Cersei, Brienne, to an extent, Arya); it would be cool to get Alyssa's perspective on this. I'll try to hop on Skype at the appropriate time.



I just listened to BLAH-- do you mean when she says that Tyrion participated in Tysha's rape? Because, while accurate, Alyssa mentioned that she considers Tyrion a victim of that same circumstance as well.

Yes. She just says that Tyrion is a victim and moves on. I personally disagree that Tyrion is a victim in regards to Tysha but that is an argument that can reasonably be made. I do not think Tyrion's actions with the slave girl in ADwD can be reasonably dismissed.

Thanks Amin for asking my question.
I wish I could have been around but my Wednesday nights are busy.

I agree that there is in the books a Pretty Womanesque romanticized view of the Westerosi version of prostitution and an (admittedly complicated) implied consent there. But the Tyrion incident from ADwD does not occur in Westeros it is in Selhorys. And that makes Tyrion's behavior quite a bit more “problematic”.



Almost enough. This is not the Tyrion who constructed a fantasy around his relationship with Shae. He is fully aware here.



Tyrion believes that she was kidnapped as a child and sold into sexual slavery. I think his line about offense and his father is intended to be threatening.




Again Tyrion is clearly aware that this is different from his previous encounters with prostitutes.



I do not think you could argue that she is even capable of consent and she certainly in no way gave it to Tyrion. She has clearly been forced against her will into this life.



Shoved and took. Charming.



Sorry, but this is sexual assault.
A fully aware adult Tyrion raped a tragically abused sex slave. Twice.


Really have been enjoying the book so far and can not wait for more with the authors.

I have to agree with FTWard here - the Tyrion chapter is surely very special and if Tyrion himself does not think of him well afterwards, that should tell the readers a lot.

And by the way - as far as I can remember: Robert's wedding night can not be seen as rape in my eyes. Especially Alyssa's wobbly argumentation about consensual and not-consensual sex regarding Tyrion plays here against her own argument. Sure - Robert was a drunken duche and may have been a bit nicer (and could have tried not to say Lyanna) but Cersei wanted for some little time making this wedding work. So at least her wedding night can be seen as consensual (and therefore in Alyssa's argumentation "not rape").

And I have to agree with Adrienne who wrote in the comments:



IMHO she is right - KINslaying and KINGslaying are by far the biggest taboos not rape. And especially Tywin tolerated it at least. One of the few who we now ALWAYS despised violence against children and women was Ned.

So although Alyssa is a very well spoken and sympathetic lady, I think she tries to fit the story into her believes (as Adrienne has pointed out) and I strongly disagree with a lot of points that she said.

By the way, my view on Cersei's marital rape situation mainly stems from the chipped tooth back-story & Robert's 'guilty pleasures' during their later marriage.

Next two are Susan Vaught's article and Brent's article, perhaps recording one next week. Can post your comments and questions here on those articles.

After that we'll probably take a break from Beyond the Wall and continue with our normal re-read (though getting Elio and Linda in sometime this summer)

I just read Brent's article today, and really enjoyed it...

...except for the horrendous typo. Jamie Lancaster? Seriously?!? Even the first name is misspelled! Editor should have spotted that. Oh well, good article nonetheless.

I liked Susan's article as well, and I agree that there definitely is a moral standard in Westeros. I agree that the worst sins seem to be those that are committed for selfish personal gain, at the expense of unity and peace in the realm. But I think her theory about winter was a bit of a stretch; it was a neat way to frame it, but I hardly think that all of Westeros cares about preparing for winter. Up north, sure, but the rest of the kingdoms seem to be largely unaware and/or dismissive of the threat of approaching winter... they're not prepared for it at all... so I don't see why they would condemn someone for acting in a way that compromises preparations for winter. I agreed with most of her points, but not necessarily the specific framing device of "winter is coming".

I agree with FTWard, Brynden and Adrienne. For me, the Tyrion scene in ADWD is rape. He knows this isn't a willing whore, goes ahead anyway and feels bad about it. To me it's a parallel story arc to Arya, where through the novels we see two characters that are very sympathetic and popular become more brutalised/desensitised by the war they are living through. I think it's completely realistic, heart-breaking and discomforting.

As for whether or not rape is the worst crime in Westeros, my reading has always been, per Adrienne, that it's kingslaying, followed by betraying guest right, and then disavowing an oath (Robb promising to marry a Frey).

I also disagree with Alyssa's arguments about Tywin. Tywin doesn't want to be associated with the rape of Eli, to be sure, but is that because he thinks rape is the crime of all crimes? He had Tysha gang-raped and he knew full well she wasn't a whore - just an innocent peasant. Maybe he doesn't want to be associated with the rape of Elia because he doesn't want to further incur the wrath of Dorne? But who's buying that. If you send a man like the Mountain to do a job, you know full well that a rape could occur.

Finally(!) one comment on language. People too often use the word "gratuitous" when then mean "egregious" or "excessive". Gratuitous means something free of meaning. It would be perfectly reasonable to believe that all of the sexual violence in ASOIAF has meaning, but that it's still excessive for your taste. I don't. I think GRRM is a great writer and that when he shows sexual violence he knows exactly what he's doing and it all has a meaning. My problem with the HBO show is that a lot of the time, the sex, let alone the sexual violence really is gratuitous.

Tywin's all about right of birth. Elia was an extremely highborn lady, Gregor had no right raping her. Where as Tysha was an up jumped peasant that thought she could marry her way into the freaking Lannisters by seducing his inexperienced son.

Excellent distinction there



Agreed.

. Totally agree! But again it shows that rape is not Westeros is not the ultimate crime in and of itself: context and rank modify Westerosi attitudes toward guilt.

My question for Brent would be on his characterisation of Dany as the classic lost princess from fantasy who has to fulfil her Destiny. He seems really sympathetic to her, and writes that she is maturing, developing, in much the same way as Tyrion. I totally disagree! With her rather incompetent and dull attempts at rule in Essos, and her irritatingly entitled attitude, is GRRM satirising that classic fantasy journey rather than letting it play out, as Brent suggests? Is there a chance that he slaps down our genre expectations and doesn't ever let her sit upon the iron throne? It'd fit with the everyone's a Targ theories and personally, it would make me happier, and fit more with GRRM's sympathy for the marginalised...

I guess I found her interpretation of Winter is Coming and unity/disunity = good/bad to be bizarre. Her treatments of specific characters were often insightful and interesting but I just could not get behind her central premise.

I have a question for Brent Hartinger about his essay for your podcast! His essay is about the 'other' characters in ASOIAF - those characters which don't fit literary norms. What does he think about the role of "The Others"? They are essentially the ultimate 'monsters' of the series, and seem to fit all the literary norms of what a monster should be...as far as we know so far. And, of course, their name specifically sets them apart as different from the living, breathing, characters that we are led to sympathise with. Thoughts?

Good q, unfortunately this came too late to make it into the question list.

i know its difficult for the crew to schedule their normal recordings and to be fair i do not care when they record. but in cases like the ones were you ask for questions/suggestions it would be good to have at least some kind of deadline for inputs. it occurs alone in this topic not only once that amin had to post "sorry too late" - that may be easy to avoid. ..

Ya it is difficult to put deadlines with our schedule right now. We were originally planning to record with Susan first but had to reschedule and Brent was available early. For Susan and Brent, I posted on July 4th revealing that they would be the next two, with one potentially the next week. That is detailed as can be, after that feel free to post right up until the episode actually gets recorded. Even if it doesn't make it into the episode, this is still a good place to discuss it.

who will be teh final beyond the wall guests? i finally bought my copy and will try to read it before you guys record so that i can ask questions

Susan will be the third and final guest. As I said, she was meant to be the second one but the scheduling didn't work out.

Also, Elio and Linda will hopefully be back on the podcast sometime in late summer or early fall. If that happens then we can ask them a couple of questions about their work in this book as well, though it will probably be a more general themed episode rather than one specifically focused on their beyond the wall essay.

Recorded today, was fun. That's it for the beyond the wall project for now, except for Elio and Linda sometime and maybe some other authors far down the line. We are going to focus on chapter rereads for now, but if there is a particular author you'ld really like on the podcast sometime, let us know here.

Oh no! I've loved the Beyond the Wall episodes, ah well, they were fun. At least we get more chapter rereads!

Any chance to have Alyssa on again sometime in the near future?

I would enjoy chatting with her again. Actually, I had planned to have her on a BOK episode about Korra while it was airing, but the scheduling never worked out.

sounds great