I'm not one of those 10 as I do the iTunes thing these days too, but I am Australian.

I'm just more the lurker type and only rarely post in forums on any site (I'll see if I can fix that).

I've been listening to the podcast since just after ADwD came out then devoured the first 60 or so episodes in a few weeks.
By far the podcast I most look forward to.

Great to meet you Dion! Which city are you from?

I have to agree with Elio's review in one particular: The writers decided to make the attack a big out-of-the-blue surprise to the show-only fans, as opposed to Martin's tactic of using a mounting sense of horror that built up and up until the shit hit the fan. For instance, "The red will flow and we'll put some wrongs aright (ohhh, I am getting a BAD feeling about this...) became "the wine will flow red and the music will play loud and we'll put this mess behind us" (woo-hoo! party-time!). But I don't necessarily think it was a bad approach; just agreeing that they used a different sort of buildup than Martin.

But interestingly, the one thing that was the closest to how Martin did it differently was an original line that wasn't in the book. I'm talking about "I can always see what's going on beneath a dress". I didn't even recognize the double-meaning there (ie. her baby bump) until I watched it a second time the next day. Which only makes it even more Martin-like, since adding value that is only apparent on a reread is definitely an important component of his Ice and Fire toolkit.

Or maybe I'm just a little dense, and should have recognized Walder's double meaning right away... Anyone else catch that? & was in on your first viewing?

Using last episode's "palace" (ie. the ruined windmill) as Queenscrown was sort of funny, I thought. I'm pretty sure it was the same building, anyhow. I would have liked it a little better if they'd had Rickon & Osha go their own way before Queensmill & save shaggydog's CGI attack money to make Grey Wind get out of his cage and tear some guys apart, but I guess it just was not meant to be. I always thought Grey Wind died before Robb, & when Robb says his name (that did happen, right?) that was him sensing that his wolf had died through their warg-bond. I never thought if it as him being about to warg into GW, but that is an interesting theory in light of the ADWD prologue...

I have wanted to see the Red Wedding on HBO since late '05 or early '06 when I first read it, back when Feast was either not yet available or else only in hardcover, I can't recall which. Totally worth the 8-year wait. What an episode! I still can't get The Rains of Castamere out of my head.

Someone said Larry only reviews GoT because it gets him more viewers, but from his review of this episode, I got the impression he's quitting the show after this season in large part because it gets *so* many views that he feels it overshadows his other videos. I don't really understand the logic there, but that's what he said. It seems he's also lost interest, which IMO is a much better reason. I still watch his reviews, but it's true his infectious enthusiasm of season 1 is pretty much gone by the wayside these days. Oh well, we'll always have his reaction to Baelor...

This was a good apoiaf episode too, even though it would have been nice to have more of the regular hosts on for such a big'un. I know it's tough to schedule though, especially on a weekly basis during the show, so it's completely understandable. Thanks for making the time to do this, guys.

Hi all. New to the forum. Maybe I'm just an idiot but didn't ever get a gay vibe from the Blackfish's failure to marry. Was this in the books? I know there were signs and statements about Renly but honestly never saw that about the Blackfish. If I just missed it please feel free to point out my ignorance.

It is not at the same level as Renly and Loras. Reasonably people can disagree on this one and one main alternative theory for why he refused to marry was that he was in love with his brother's wife. APOIAF canon has mainly gone with the interpretation that he is gay.

I love the Pink Walder theory, it's just hilarious.

I think the Frey ladies probably saved the Blackdouchefish - he was having none of that crap and left. "Going to take a piss" was just his excuse. (And a little note, going by Walder Frey's age, those could have very well been his daughters. I mean, in the books his oldest child was in his 60s when he died, the age would fit.)

I'm conflicted about the four-way fight...I think either Barristan or Grey Worm would have good chances of winning, basically for the same reasons Nilan mentioned. (but yes, definitely not Jorah or Daario)

Tormund as Ygritte's dad? Would make sense. He is a decent enough father in the books, after all. (But this theory is just making me want to expand on it and add minor red-headed characters to the list of potential children of Tormund. )

Was I the only one who remembered that Catelyn did have a proper bedding ceremony in the books? She reminisces on it at some point and thinks about how most of the northern bannermen there at the time had already died by that point (at the Tower of Joy, died with Ned at King's Landing, etc.). I didn't see anyone in this forum mention it yet. Well, I wasn't that upset that they changed it, so I guess it doesn't matter.

Saw this theory somewhere, what if Ygritte is Mance's daughter? Have we got any family back story in the show? She replaces Val as the Wildling princess and Tormund is overprotective because she is a "royal"

I think uncle makes the most sense. Or her father left or something but she grew up in his village so he's loyal to her. It would explain her 'rank' in wildling society as well. If we're just talking show canon I doubt she'll be anyone important's daughter, it would be a weird thing not to mention.

Very true. Very true.

Walder Frey is dead? Thought the old bastard is still around by the end od ADWD??

Pink Walder... there really is a Frey for every use. Heh heh heh.

As for the Blackfish being gay: well who knows, but then again the whole Renly/Loras thing went over my head in the first reading. Only later did I have any notion WTH was going on. He could refuse to marry because he lost a female love and dosen't want to replace her, or because he's gay, or because he lost a male love and dosen't want to replace him (like Loras). No matter which way, it makes him a more interesting character.

As far as the furor over Jaehearys I: Really? Someone really got excited about this? Can you tell me, off the top of your head, who was in control of your country in 1899? Or 1923? Or 1701? No? Well Sam probably can't either. It's not that big a deal.

No the oldest child is dead, Stevron Frey. You can read that sentence different ways haha.

Elio & Linda's thoughts after each TV episode are interesting to read but I always take what they say with a grain of salt as they are way too close to the books/George to be very objective. Though in hindsight I can agree to some extent about what they said about the lack of the impending sense of horror that was in the book. I still thought the episode was pretty damn awesome though. I've spent way too much time this week watching & reading people's reactions to it.

Despite some viewers saying they'll stop watching I suspect the finale might be their best ratings yet.

I've never understood reader's who rage quit the series at this point. From memory (it was around ten years ago) it just got me even more engrossed to read on. From the moment Bran is pushed out the window its obvious this is not your typical fantasy story.



Sorry, I'm not a Melbournian, I'm in Adelaide!

I guess I didn't word that very well, sorry. Yes, Stevron Frey is dead, Walder Frey is still alive and kicking (lending credit to the saying that nasty people live longer).

Oh, and something I forgot to mention in my other post - anyone think that Walder Frey might demand a new wife from the Lannisters in the show? In the books, he didn't have that problem, but I could see him doing that. (And he did make sure a few of his youngest children and grandchildren were betrothed to Lannisters after the Red Wedding in the books.)

I'm pretty sure the Frey women introduced as his daughters were the same ones who were looking at the Blackfish? It was so dumb that the Blackfish went for a pee break and therefore survived but I remember breathing a sigh of relief that he was going to survive - if they don't explain how he survived in the next episode that makes sense I'll be annoyed though. Totally didn't pick up on the double meaning that Frey could see she was pregnant until the second watch, maybe I'm seeing things but thought they might have given her a fake stomach/ done something to make her look a bit bigger?

Pink Walder is my new favourite thing!

This was a great episode even without Mimi and Ashley - hopefully get their reactions soon though! I think I'm pretty much mostly in agreement with Kyle in terms of being pretty forgiving for the show in general, but at the same time I love the nerd rage and being able to point out the stuff that doesn't work - I still don't understand how the taking of Yunkai even happened in the show, and Barristan just having a drink and chilling with Dany was so weird.

I only watched the episode once, so I might be misremembering, but the daughters/granddaughters Robb had to apologize to were all rather young, the oldest ones maybe in their late teens/early to mid 20s? (I suppose those were only the ones who would have been eligible for Robb to marry, so a widowed daughter in her 40s or older, for instance, wouldn't be there.) I remember the women looking at Blackfish were middle-aged (or at least some of them were). Though some of the daughters from before might have been in that group, I can't remember, really.

I got the impression Walder Frey was referring to Talisa being pregnant when he said something about what the dress "couldn't hide" - dirty old man, yes, but I don't think he was only talking about her body at that point. He has been married 8 times and has seen his wives (and mistresses) pregnant dozens of times, he'd know the signs, early or not.
And yes, I agree, they could have made her at least have a small but still noticeable bump. I don't know how much time passed in the show between her announcing her pregnancy and the Red Wedding, and I get she was still in a early stage of pregnancy, but still.

Great episode. Loved the idea of pulling random listeners in.

In regards to Greyworm's worm, he's full-on eunuch. It is known.

Agree with Shadow stalker that the second wave threw down their arms. Probably would have been more effective if they showed it, but I guess they wanted to show Dany all concerned about Daario.

Like the VOK plug at the end. Anybody else think the robotic type voice sounded like neptr?

Thank you.

William McCinley, Warren Harding, Queen Anne? Not sure about Queen Anne.

Ygritte's family:
Tormund's member is not constrained by space or time, he knocks up ladies through the weirwood network.

Pink Walder:
The trouts are never floppy when the most fabulous Frey is around.

I think maybe still William, but nice on the presidents, I can't remember any of them by year between Lincoln and FDR.

In 1701 I would say it was some Potawatomi chieftain whose words, be it negikanamazo (meaning otter tail) or kikalamezo (meaning boiling pot or place where the water boils) depending on who you ask, lead to the place eventually being called Kalamazoo.

Ate there hot springs in Kalamazoo? If so I'm going with the water one. Also do you know all this stuff, or is this trivia courtesy of wikipedia?

I knew the Potawatomi tribe lived in Michigan and that Kalamazoo had some Native American back ground, but yes, I did visit wikipedia.

Me too. I'm also a big show supporter/apologist, but I find his episode reviews to be very thoughtful. And while he's obviously a massive fan of the original material, he understands that things are going have to be adapted differently for a visual medium, and a more condensed running time. This makes his criticisms more valuable, because he doesn't just see white rage (like some readers) whenever they change something from the books, and has even complimented some changes.


Yeah, I agree. I think people's faith in "happy endings" and the invincibility of the hero were shattered after Ned's execution. And by this point the narrative is way less centralized, and follows a lot more characters. However, Robb was our best bet to avenge Ned, our strongest chance for a Stark victory. After the Red Wedding, there is just this sad emptiness (or as Arya would say, "the hole where our heart had been"). However, I still couldn't stop reading. Even if the ultimate war was lost, there was still dozens of characters I still cared about.

I think on re-reading ASOS, you realize there's this melancholy that hangs over Robb's chapters. He was defeated long before he died at the Twins. And it's surprising how many clues there are for the Red Wedding happening. From Bolton ordering the attack on Duskendale, to Ramsay sacking Winterfell, to the Witch of High Hearts prophecy, to Stannis and his leeches, to Tywin and his letters. There was so much build up. Compare that to Ned's execution, wherein the Queen and Varys had every intention to keep him alive, only for Joffrey to order his head out of nowhere.


True, though it does support what the Halfhand argued: that Mance is training his wildlings to act more like the Night's Watch (i.e. attacking in regimented force, rather than guerrilla tactics).

It's all about terrain. The halfhand had uneven and rocky terrain which makes the act of sneaking a lot easier. The horse farmer's house is surrounded by nothing but open fields. There are no trees or shrubs to hide behind. The closest object to take cover at is the wall they start from. In order to sneak up on his house they would have had to sniper crawl all the way to his front door which would have taken forever. Running full speed, it still seemed to take them minutes to get there. So if they would have been spotted sneaking up, and it's my understanding horses can notice predators in grass, the horse farmer would have had time to make a damn omelet before getting on his horse and riding off.

And lets not forget that running at the house full speed was working, until Jon sabotaged it.......twice.

Jon why are you such a jerk? Ygritte's face! Can she not die please?

Good point, Pod. I Eurocentric'd that up. Not sure who would have actually been running this area in 1701. There was a lot of movement and disclocation among native tribes after the Beaver Wars of 1600s where the Five Nations (not Six, yet) of the Iroquois tried to conquoer everything from upstate New York west to get control of the fur trade away from the French.

The stuff I looked up suggests that people don't even agree if Kalamazoo comes from just the name of the river, or if the specific spot was called Kalamazoo, but here's how Kalamazoo got its name


Titus Bronson= Stannis Baratheon?

Stannis Baratheon >>>> Titus Bronson



Disillusion Stannis all you want, he is not going anywhere.

Good enough for me

I have no deep thoughts about this, for some reason it just made me laugh seeing 20 guys randomly run across a field for their big battle ... against an old horse dude. I don't even get what the point of killing the horse breeder dude even was? What's he going to do? Just take his horses and go!