I didn't see a thread for this podcast yet, so apologies if I missed it.

Quick note. I was the person who thought Ellaria Sand was Jon Snow for like half a second. I don't think it was that crazy. It was the first shot of that scene and for a second I didn't know where we were and for that brief instance I was like, "wait, what why is Jon Snow in a comfy bed?"

Anyway. Great episode. I loved Mordion measuring Gendry's possible routes in his dinghy.

And I'll be the person to nitpick about the Valyrian in Meereen. I'm pretty sure they speak Ghiscari or some weird Ghiscari mix in Meereen as the slaver cities were part of the old Ghiscari Empire and not part of the Freehold of Valyria. But I could be wrong about all that, not a huge deal.


One thing that kept coming back to me. A few times in this episode you guys mentioned how the show will do things when it gets to Feast/Dance material (Sam going to Oldtown, Tyrion and the prostitute, etc) and every time I realistically think about these events I just can't see them going down even remotely similar to the books. There are so many divergences in the show from relatively straight-forward stuff that happens in the books that makes things more complicated, that these events from the future books will just be completely changed or just not kept at all. (Kyle mentioned if Oldtown will even make it into the show and its a serious concern).

I mentioned this once before, but I can see the show not even having Aegon/Griff at all and just have Dany come back to simplify that whole storyline. They are gonna have to cut so much exposition and world-building stuff out to keep viewers attention that I'm really scared of how much they will change.

On the other side it will make it that much easier to stop watching the show. Hopefully this doesn't happen, but that's been my fear for a while.

to be fair, with how spoiler-like some things in the show are looking, I'd be very, very happy if they just completely changed the story line (Dany instead of Aegon, e.g.) and just officially started making something different. I AM enjoying the show and I DO want to keep watching, but I'll have to stop if they keep putting in scenes like the last one in this episode. I'd rather they just did their own thing and I could watch it and enjoy it without worrying about spoilers

I don't have the discipline to stop watching. No matter I was completely spoiled for everything anyway. The thing that will suck is if the cast stops watching. I love show season because we get some constant casts

Great episode, as always. Lots of nit-picking, but I think that exponentially compounds with more hosts.

Agree with Kyle that it wouldn't make any sense for the writer and director to have completely opposite takes on what's happening in the sept. Seems almost impossible that D&D would write the scene as rape and Graves would direct it as consenting. More likely just piss poor execution across the board.

Guess it doesn't really matter, though.

Yeah, especially after watching the next episode I'm pretty sure we're supposed to take away that the writers did not mean for this to be seen as rape and it was just shot poorly.

Well, maybe in the script it says "Jaime forces himself on her. Cersei resists, then she passionately grabs his mantle/garments and kisses him wildly whilst saying 'it's not right' " or something like that and the director thought that was clear enough in his head?

In the end, it's the director who has to get the point across or maybe it's like with Stannis: one of the producers sees it as more consensual in the books than the other and so you end up with a messy scene? It's possible even for us readers not to be unanimous in our interpretation of events and characters and that would obviously also be the case for the showrunners? To me, for instance the scene in the book was nothing other than rape because her cosnenting is nothing he has control over and so he just continues to have sex, and does not think of Cersei's will at all at that moment and it was just dumb luck that she gave subsequent conent but even then it does not change the fact that he forced himself on her and you might say "oh but in the book it's just rough sex" but that's not how it came across to me while reading it. I was still rooting for jaime despite all this because I am not someone who thinks any act is irredeemable at some point but yeah, it was not an unambiguous moment in any way for me.

hm I reread the scene in the books again and I feel like I have to reconsider my opinion on that whole scene in the show now.
You definitely have a point, Beric.
She does consent in the books whereas in the show she doesn't, but he does force himself on her initially in the books, and she does resist a bit, and if she hadn't consented and she had kept trying to physically resist, it probably wouldn't have changed anything. it also seems more like she consents because she realises that there's no point in resisting. we're just seeing the scene from his point of view, and that's not enough to convince me that she is really actually into it, and doesn't just accept it cause she kinda has to.

I actually just started re-listening to the audiobook and even in Bran's chapter when he discovers Jaime and Cersei in the tower Cersei is saying "no" and Jaime really has to coerce her into having sex. I know they're relationship was always "complicated" but after the whole HBO thing it really makes you pay close attention, and it was there the entire time.

EDIT: lol, wrong thread.

I actually don't know anyone who read the books and thought that scene was rape before this episode aired but maybe I'm wrong on that one. It's not like they had no choices in how they adapted that scene regardless. But we probably don't want to reopen that can of worms on this thread

I enjoyed listening to this episode - particularly about an episode of the show that was especially controversial. You did a good job addressing it while still talking about the episode as a whole. I'm really grateful that you guys are pumping out episodes for the show - I'm sure it must be hard to have to edit and release podcasts this quickly.

Well maybe go back and reread the scene. I don't know anyone either who thought the scene was rape in the books, and I didn't think that either, but I do feel like if I reread it now (even if I hadn't seen the show) I'd probably say it was.

I think when reading the books it's easy to lose sensitivity to these issues, at least within the context of the series, because rape is such a common thing, and it just happens. and it's not necessarily frowned upon either; it's part of dothraki culture, it's perfectly acceptable for a husband to rape his wife, and in war it's just one of the many things that happen and it's not a particularly big deal. so, from a point of view within the series, this isn't a big deal, whether it's rape or not. it probably isn't a big deal to Cersei, because even if she considers it to be rape, it's probably okay cause they're in kind of a relationship.

I'm a lot more sensitive to this issue now than I was when I first read the books, for several reasons. and now I do think it's rape, and I do think it's fairly clear. She says no, and that should be the end of it. she even physically resists a little bit, and that should be the end of it. and he just doesn't give a shit. she does sort of consent in the end, but it's fairly pressured, it's Jaime's POV so we don't see what's going on in her mind, and what she says comes down to "do it quickly" rather than "this is awesome I want this". not resisting anymore just to get things over with more quickly is not the same as consenting.

The whole idea that it wasn't rape is sort of based on the idea that she did actually want it. even though she said no. oh hello robin thicke. oh hello project unbreakable.
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... life-rape/ for more reference. so it's okay because Jaime knows that she wants it? How can he be so sure? How often would she have had to say no, how strongly would she have had to resist physically for him to realise and accept that she really doesn't want to have sex. does lack of resistance, does giving up because there's no point, equal consent? and having had consensual sex with someone at some point doesn't mean you'll always be up for that, and even if you would consent under different circumstances, there may be times and places (e.g. next to your dead son) where you're just not keen. and did Cersei really have any power to change what was happening? How could she possibly have prevented him raping her if saying no and physically resisting wasn't good enough?

and I'll play this card even though I shouldn't: I've been there. I was in an abusive relationship for way longer than I should have been. And there's a point where you do give up. There's a point where you learn that saying no is pointless, and resisting physically can just make things worse. saying no should be enough. more than enough, really. people keep arguing that there's such a thing as blurred lines when it comes to consent, and maybe there is or maybe there isn't, but saying no is a clear case, and that's all that should be necessary. my ex boyfriend never thought of it that way, he was always convinced he was doing me a favour, and he knew better what I wanted than I did, and I was just saying no cause I didn't know what was good for me. And having said yes on some previous occasion was worth more than me saying no there and then.
and it also took me a while to sort all of this out in my head, rather than just thinking "oh well, he loves me, and we've had consensual sex before, and we're in a relationship, and it's not like I'd never want to sleep with him at all. So I'll just have to put up with it."

I don't think Jamie is intentionally raping her, as in, is aware of what he's doing. he certainly thinks it's consensual and he is convinced that she wants it, and he has strong eonugh feelings about rape that I'm sure he wouldn't do it if he actually realised what it was, but he's just not taking Cersei and what she's saying seriously. We didn't get to hear Cersei's thoughts about it. She may not think it was rape, because she may feel like it is his right. From a modern point of view it definitely isn't, though. It's just rape.

Thank you for sharing, Scilens, very well said.

Seconded

Thirded.

Fourthed..... ?

And my axe!

Well played.