Jun 18, 2008
Episode 10: Ménage à Stark
Episode 10 for the week of June 15th, in which we discuss the “what if…” scenarios in the series. What could have happened differently? How would have things turned out if it did? This our first episode on this topic, portraying our views and personal answers to questions submitted by our listeners.
For the links mentioned during the podcast:
fatherstone’s Deviantart Ice and Fire gallery.
Amok’s George R.R. Martin portrait.
In other news, come hang out at our irc channel! Join #iceandfire on irc.synirc.net. Thanks go out to rofflestomp for helping get it up and running.
37 Comments, Comment or Ping
Anjou
Ah, the one I have been waiting for! I am sure it will be doubly interesting.
Jun 18th, 2008
Avernaith
… Alright guys, good podcast, and thank you as always for having the great idea and following through with it. That said, I think it is (respectfully) time for some people to go back and re-read the series. Joff and Myrcella would have been born before Robert & Rhaegar fought at the Trident? srsly? Tywin sent the raiding parties out not to draw Riverrun to battle, but to draw Eddard out to stop them, this plan was ruined by Jaime’s impulsive attack resulting in Ned’s shattered leg. It was a great premise for a show but sometimes the confusion over what happened when muddies the issue to oblivion, like the discussion on ‘What if Jon hadn’t been elected Lord Commander?’. Magnar of Thenn and his buddies attack Castle Black from the south and are repelled. Mance assaults the Wall from the North and eventually Jon has to assume command, repelling them for days. Ser Alliser and Lord Slynt arrive and have Jon arrested, finally sending him over the Wall to treat with Mance. Stannis attacks and the wildlings are broken. Jon had turned down Stannis’ offer before being elected Lord Commander.
So keep up the good work, but maybe open up a webpage to the Citadel to review timelines or something during episode prep or during the taping, it can remove a lot of confusion. Thanks for the podcast!
Jun 18th, 2008
Aaron
We’ve already been over this a couple times. We aren’t going to be perfect — so if you’re getting your undies bunched that bad just don’t listen. Thats not to say we aren’t interested in being accurate, but none of us are ever proclaiming to be experts on anything. Our number one goal (or at least mine, I’ll let the others reply for themselves if they want), is to be entertaining. So maybe we are wrong — take it with a grain of salt, and instead of nerding out and pointing out every inconsistancy, just take it in stride and laugh at us, without the rude remarks. Again, if it bothers you that much, wait for the next episode. If that one bothers you too, and the one after, welp, this podcast might not be for you.
It’s also harder to be accurate with less people to pool what we know together.
This also isn’t to say we aren’t open to criticism. I hear what your saying, and I understand where you’re coming from. You’re just going about saying it the wrong way. At least to my ears.
Jun 18th, 2008
Amin
Thanks for your comment. We usually have a page open to the Citadel, but you are right, at some points we did get stalled in that episode.
If one of us gets something horribly wrong though, the rest usually point that out in a humourous way. I could edit out the mistakes we may but I prefer to leave in most of our discussion to make it more human and authentic. After all, I see the show more as a bunch of friends discussing the series over lunch than a literary book group or literary review.
Yes there were mistakes in there, but to discuss your points here. The Joff and Myrcella thing was not serious speculation but rather just one of those quick lines of speech before thought that was corrected by the rest of us immediately. Not sure what Tywin’s raiding party was about but if you were referring to the Tully’s being pissed off, they don’t know Tywin’s intentions (even if that is it), they are just gettign raided and provoked into fighting. Jon’s defence of the wall speculation was incorrect but the main arguement/stall there was whether Jon would have taken Stannis’ offer if he wasn’t elected Lord Commander. He had not turned downed Stannis’ offer before being elected Lord Commander. It seemed that he had decided to do so, but he was elected before he could talk to Stannis about it. Too much reading into your wording there, but the point is if Slynt had been elected at the meeting there, Jon still had time to reconsider, or might have reconsidered even if he had officially turned down Stannis’ offer.
Jun 18th, 2008
Ashley 2
Would you be so kind as to point me to the chapter where Jon goes to Stannis and declines his offer? I can’t find it.
Jun 19th, 2008
rik
If I was doing this podcast it’d be terrible. I’ve read the books about 4 times each and still can’t recall a lot of stuff. You can’t be expected to know everything and i’d prefer the odd inaccuracy to having the flow of conversation broken up every 5 mins to check the chronological order of when people where born 20yrs before the events in AGOT.
Hats off to yas!
Jun 19th, 2008
Avernaith
Sorry, thought that couching both ends of my post in compliments and gratitude would let you know I was offering constructive criticism and not base insults. I could lavish every podcast with praise if that’s better, but since I actually like the podcast and want to see it grow stronger I thought some honest criticism would be better. Certainly launching an attack on every response other than drooling fanboyism is not going to help things. Aaron if I didn’t like the podcast at all I’d post “OMFG u noobz are teh suxxor GTFO”.
Amin – I love the podcasts, warts and all, no need to edit anything. It’s all part of the charm. And yep, you and Ashley2 called it, he makes his decision first but doesn’t announce it until after. My mistake on that, much like thinking for the past few years that Sandor kissed Sansa or that the Jeyne Westerling sent west was the same that Robb married.
I love the series and the discussions are great, I’ve already picked up a lot of things that I had missed in a dozen-odd readings. But I do stand by my assertion that the topic can be deeply confused by mixing in gross inaccuracies. No one expects 100% accuracy, hell we’re not paying for any of this so whatever the accuracy is should be fine. I just think it would improve the quality of the entire show to stamp out as many egregious errors as possible.
Aaron, I’d challenge you to re-read my first post and look at it in a more positive light, rather than as a personal attack on the podcasters. If you still feel the remarks are rude then by all means ban me from posting and enjoy the dearth of criticism. I tend to take a better light on that sort of thing, as evidenced by Amin and Ashley2 both challenging my recollection of Jon’s actions. I reread the chapter and -behold-, expanded my knowledge and improved myself.
Thanks again and keep up the good work.
Jun 19th, 2008
Ranskey
Yeah a few times throughout all the episodes u guys say jon and dany might be cousins. Thats impossible, she is his auntie.
Jun 19th, 2008
mimi
unknown artist? that’s gotta be the famous amok, asoiaf artist extraordinaire. his portraits are really great and most of them serve as the basis for how i imagine the characters (except for dany the tranny).
avernaith- i get where you’re coming from. we do make mistakes during the podcast a lot, especially during rambling or trains of thought. i’ve read the series meticulously and still mixed up a quote from the hedge knight with the series proper in the first episode or something. not to mention at some point i thought jaime was responsible for crippling willas tyrell.
i don’t think your points were rude or worded carelessly. i appreciate that you listen, and i know that it must be frustrating to hear incorrect plot points. but i can’t promise that it won’t happen again. we usually do our best to be prepared for the recordings and have pages to the citadel and tower of the hand up while we talk, but there will be slip-ups.
personally, i think it’s great that listeners correct us on things and point out facts we might have missed. i think it all contributes to the commonwealth of asoiaf knowledge, as long as it’s tactful.
Jun 19th, 2008
split_negative
You know, I find the errors kind of fun. The small ones I usually just pass over and keep listening. The large ones usually have me arguing with the monitor (or to my cube wall at work) about who did what when. 🙂
If anything, when you guys do get things wrong, it just makes me wish I could interrupt and talk back. Would that be the nerd in me?
Jun 19th, 2008
Aaron
It’s not a problem, and really I’m not angry or hurt or anything. I suppose I just have a more sensitive filter towards criticism.
Like I said at the bottom of my post, I heard what you were saying, I wish we could be more accurate too, but sometimes it’s just not going to happen.
Jun 19th, 2008
rik
Oh Shit just heard myself at the end, i’m now regreting sending that audio question. I sound like an idiot. I swear i don’t form sentences in my head with ahms between each word.
Jun 19th, 2008
Chris
That being said, what do you guys think about Rik’s What if?
Jun 19th, 2008
Amin
Avernaith, your comments are definitely appreciated, sorry if we seem extra sensitive sometimes, heh.
rik, it was nice that you sent in an audio comment, we need more people brave enough to send us audio feedback for the show, such as trivia questions and feedback.
Jun 19th, 2008
oxmix
Here’s a what if for you.
What if nothing can change, because the whole SOIAF story is predestined?
By way of comparison, in Tolkien it is made clear a few times that even though the characters feel like they are doing things that will have consequences, really they are playing out their parts in a devine plan. (“You’re a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I’m very fond of you, but you’re only quite a little fellow in a wide world, after all.”)
Is SOIAF like that? For example, at the beinging of the first book the Starks find a dire wolf that was killed by a stag. Isn’t something telling them, “Sorry, Starks. You are good guys and we are quite fond of you, but your characters in a sad story here.”
Isn’t it all destined to end up with a Prince that was Promised fighting the ice zombies?
Or maybe not. What do I know?
Thanks for the podcast.
Jun 19th, 2008
Avernaith
Worse yet, what if the Prince Who Was Promised ended his days slowly dripping down the wall after Gregor brained him? What does that mean for Westeros? We already know prophecies can be broken, vis The Stallion Who Mounts the World. I used to be footloose and fancy free assuming the vision in the Halls of the Undying was Rhaegar with Lyanna, and the baby was Jon. Recent illumination from this very podcast series has proven the matter to be otherwise.
Jun 20th, 2008
Ranskey
Umm, when was this disproven, at what time in which episode, all I have heard is speculation, I have read through that several times and it never mentions anything falsify that belief. ELia Martell is mentioned, but in a different part of the visions Dany gets.
Jun 20th, 2008
Ranskey
Nevermind, I guess Martin has confirmed that Elia was the woman with Aegon. Well, I guess Rhaegar didn’t know who the prince that was promised was lol. I don’t know how I missed you guys saying this in the podcast I would have had to check on it sooner.
Jun 20th, 2008
Ashley 2
Ranskey, I said so in the comments section for the last episode. Martin has confirmed this himself, according to The Citadel.
Also, Rik, I don’t think you sounded like an idiot. I think Jaime would still be more or less the same if he still had his hand. As you said, it was a humbling experience for him.
Jun 20th, 2008
Ashley 2
Guh… too slow. Sorry for the reiteration.
Jun 20th, 2008
Ranskey
Well I’m glad we finally have some verification on this, I had felt it was impossible that it was lyanna/jon because it doesn’t appear that Rhaegar was around to see Jon being born, he had already died on the trident, if Lyanna died birthing Jon, it would have been impossible for him to be there. My mind still goes to the possibility that Quentyn Martell is baby Aegon. Although I have heard people say its impossible, I don’t think it is.
Jun 20th, 2008
rik
Ashley 2 – The way I saw it Jamie’s attitude changed for the better by losing a hand. Would he have formed that strange relationship with Briene and given her Oathkeeper if he could still weild it himself?
I suppose at this stage that wouldn’t make much of a difference since Briene’s quest may not continue..
His relationship with Cersi would have been different as well, didn’t she detest the missing arm as a weakness? Would she have sent him to Riverrun?
Jun 20th, 2008
Ashley
No, no, I completely agree with you. Jaime did change after losing his hand, absolutely. What I meant to say was that Jaime would be the same (more or less) as he was before he lost his hand. Does that make sense? Sorry for not being clear in my last post.
Jun 20th, 2008
oxmix
Here is my idea for a podcast topic: Unproven theories. The wilder the better.
For example, in some early show somebody suggested that Euron was a child mollestor and somebody eles laughed at the suggestion. You could have a good discussion on this theory.
Other possible theories for discussion:
Jeyne Westerling is pregnant.
Tyrion is a Targ.
Jon is the Prince that was Promised.
Dany is the Prince that was Promised.
Hot Pie is the Prince that was Promised.
Jon is a head of the dragon.
Tyrion is a head of the dragon.
Bran is a head of the dragon.
Sandor is alive.
Edric Dayne is Baby Aegon.
Podric Payne is Baby Aegon.
Jon Connington has Baby Aegon.
Somebody else is Baby Aegon.
[ok, you could do a whold show an Baby Aegons]
Ashara Dayne is Jon’s mother.
Jaquen is Syrio.
Benjen Stark is Coldhands.
Littlefinger is a Targ loyalist.
Aurane Waters is defecting to Dany.
Add your own. The wilder the better.
Jun 21st, 2008
Anjou
Jon is son of Eddard and Lysa.
Bran is a homosexual.
There’s more to the Others than meets the eye.
Dany will go Asshai.
Victarion will die in ADWD
Theon will become the savior of the North
Jun 24th, 2008
Ranskey
Hey a quick question, does anyone here have any solid evidence that if Jon is infact born at the Tower of Joy then he is nine months older than Dany, people keep saying this on several boards. But, that would mean Ned warped to high garden, then warped to the tower of joy, all in like 2 days.
Jun 26th, 2008
Anjou
You answered your own question, ranskey. Dany is older than Jon.
Jun 26th, 2008
Ranskey
No, she definitely is not older. They were born somewhere between the same time and her 9 months after him. But, i think this gap is more like 1-2 months. If infact Jon is Lyanna’s son, if he isn’t then there are no clues to his age vs. hers.
Jun 26th, 2008
Anjou
I’ll take your word for it then. Personally, I don’t buy the Jon is a Targaryen spiel.
Jun 26th, 2008
Ranskey
Oh yeah, he may not be, I think he is, this question was only IF he is, if he isn’t then there really are no clues as to his age, other than Catelyn saying Robb is older. But, that could just be her wanting her son to be Eddard’s oldest.
Jun 27th, 2008
Ash
saying that Jon was older than Rob would mean that Ned got busy before he married Cat. i understood it that she was pragnant before he went off to war.
Jun 27th, 2008
oxmix
It is interesting that if you go back and read the first chapter of the first book, Jon seems older tnan Rob. Rob comes across like Robert Baratheon, full of exuberence. Jon is all wise and responsible.
Jun 27th, 2008
Avernaith
If most of the conspiracy theorists are right, Jon and Robb are about the same age. Catelyn got pregnant with Robb before Eddard went off to fight at the Trident with Robert. Rhaegar would have had to have gotten Lyanna pregnant some time before the Trident as well, in order for her to be giving birth about the time Eddard made his way to the Tower of Joy.
If jon seems more mature, it might be from growing up as a ‘bastard’ in the eyes of everyone (except Ned, who always treated him like a son and not a bastard son).
Jun 27th, 2008
JOHN91043353
Oh if you do a “Who is baby Aegon?” show you must also include the famous Satin is Aegon theory.
He, in diffrence to Ned dayne, is the right age and has black Martell hair and a mysterious past…
Also
Melisandre is a Lannister loyalist.
Jul 5th, 2008
DocBean
I think what you guys are missing on the What if Robert lost at the Trident part is that Robert became the King after the war was over.
He told Ned that, Ned would have made a better King, but Ned said Robert had a better claim to the throne – because Robert, Renly, and Stannis’s mother, or Grandmother was a Targarien.
So if Robert lost, the war would have gone on, the Starks, Arryns, Tullys, and Lannisters would have still gone against Rheagar and Company. Stannis would have held out a little longer, but would have needed Ned or someone to save him. I think the Rebels still would have won in the end, and then they would have made Ned, or Stannis the new king. Probably Stannis because he would have had the better claim to the throne.
Oct 3rd, 2008
Amin
Hey. I agree with you that the war would have gone on, and Stannis needed help. I seemed to be the minority opinion on that one in this episode, lol.
I don’t know which side would have won, I definitely think it would have been a tight scrap. Interesting how the Tyrells and Martells would be the principle allies on one side.
Jun 19th, 2009
jude
Great podcast guys!
I’ve been listening to you all for the past month, trying to catch up to episode 16. I think I’ve been doing pretty well so far. The episodes are so long (which is great) and I always listen to them while I’m walking around running errands, so I usually forget the things I want to comment on.
As for this week’s, I found the last half hour incredibly entertaining. Also, really looking forward to the next ‘what if’ episode, since the question re: Jaime and the stump sounds really interesting.
Keep it up!
Oct 12th, 2008
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