Apr 1, 2008
Episode 3 (Part 1): Tyrion the Catcher
Episode 3, part 1 for the week of March 30th. Here’s what happened. What was originally intended to be a thoughtful, intellectual discussion on the romantic relationships and cultural values toward sex and marriage in the series quickly devolved into a very long discussion about which characters we’d like to make sweet love to. At the thirty-minute mark, the podcast takes on all the insight and intellect of a high school boy’s locker room. Therefore, we have decided to split the subject into two episodes- the more relevant, latter section to be released within the week.
Don’t hate us, we love you.
32 Comments, Comment or Ping
Anonymous
I think Mimi needs a severe wake-up call on the breadth and history of feminism. Otherwise, nice enough show.
Apr 1st, 2008
Aaron
If you didn’t catch it – the week before this I was a bit late because I had gone out with my girlfriend and some friends to get some Coldstone ice cream.
This week my girlfriend’s computer decided to die, and I had left my sound off while she was using mine to work, and I completely forgot it was Thursday. Oops. Oh well, I still made it for the best parts (Hot Pie).
Apr 1st, 2008
Mimi
hi anonymous, thanks for listening to this week’s episode. i’m curious as to what you mean by the critical component of your comment, though, because i’m a bit confused as to how the “breadth and history of feminism” factors into our episode. if you could expound on what you mean or be kind enough to provide me with said wake-up call, i’d appreciate it. thanks again for listening and providing feedback!
Apr 1st, 2008
Chris
Haha!
What happened to the poll.
I was getting a good ego stroke from it!
Apr 1st, 2008
mimi
i replace the old poll with the new whenever an episode goes up. blogger, however, is being uncooperative.
Apr 1st, 2008
Tommy
Where’s the poll???
I voted and really wanted to know the result!!! 🙁
Anyway, nice podcast!
And you guys need nice mic!!!
Apr 1st, 2008
Anonymous
(this is the previous “anonymous”:)
You say being a mother and a wife as a sign of a poor female character, which really doesn’t make sense to me. Ned is a father and husband and he’d rather be doing that than being a ruler, but for him a lack of ambition is noble. Whereas with Catelyn it’s a liability? Also, what else is she supposed to want, she’s already lady of a great house of Westeros. She has a lot of power, and she cedes to Robb not because she’s a woman but because she isn’t a Stark. If it was because of being a woman she wouldn’t insist that he keep his sisters in the line of inheritance. It seems to me you are defining feminism by tidy little 21st century archetypes that you’d find on TV shows. It undermines the fact that women had to fight quite hard for the freedoms young women enjoy today. It didn’t just happen like magic.
Apr 1st, 2008
Anonymous
(same “anonymous”)
Also I want to apologize for coming on so strongly. Your podcast is meant for fun and I should’ve considered my words better.
Apr 1st, 2008
Ash
it’s a difference of definition you guys are arguing, neither are wrong because you’re supporting two different things. Catlyn does not break or try to push her gender role. that is what Mimi is saying and she’s right. on the other hand, though she does play to the system she does use what voice she has within that system to fight for her beliefs, so in that Chris is right. BOTH ARE RIGHT! but are just lumbing them both under the same heading saying that one is not the other.
i’m not sure if i’m making myself clear but mislableing their argument doesn’t mean what they were arguing is wrong, just perhaps mislabeled.
anyways just wanted to try to clear that up so that an argument doesn’t break out over what is essentially semantics.
Apr 2nd, 2008
Slurpee_E
This was definitely NOT the worst episode ever. It was really funny, and you can tell you guys are having fun bantering back and forth.
Apr 2nd, 2008
Anonymous
Ash, you are right that there’s different arguments to make from different angles. But I think that was kind of my point, feminism is really vast and complicated, I think it’s about more than Xena Warrior Princess.
If breaking gender roles is the only requirement for being a good character, then I think more people would like Sam. He’s a learner and a lover of knowledge in a society of warriors, where males are taught to value violence (albiet normally with limitations). You see why I was thinking that the picture presented of gender roles is a little limited?
Cersei does recognize that she gets screwed by her society, but she also turns people off the idea of women having power. She does nothing to help the situation, she’s just in it to put other women down. No one person in the series is really an ideal, see?
Apr 2nd, 2008
Amin
What I meant on the show with the housewife comment is that focusing on being a mother and wife should be no less noble than Ned focusing on being a father and husband. Caitlin’s held to a double standard because most women have no choice, while the men do, then and now.
I don’t think Mimi’s views on feminism were limited, but rather based on that drive that lead to better condition for women. Some women fought the system directly, and in that sense Cersei did more than Catelyn. Others reached their full potential within the system, and I don’t think they should be categorized as weak for not directly rebelling.
Anyway lets get some comments on our poll review =P
Apr 2nd, 2008
Amin
Wow, a few posts while I was still typing the last one..
Apr 2nd, 2008
Koinosuke
That was awesome, as usual ^_^ You guys had me laughing out loud a good few times there! Can’t wait for part two.
Apr 2nd, 2008
Matt
I typed and erased several replies, but they kept getting really long. Suffice it to say the part about what constitutes a strong woman was frustrating to listen to. I know people thought I was a weirdo as I argued with my ipod while running.
Apr 2nd, 2008
Anonymous
You forgot Meera Reed!
Apr 2nd, 2008
Slurpee_E
Well, if we’re on the topic of missed people on the poll, what about Jhiqui and Irri?
Apr 2nd, 2008
Anonymous
Amin,
I understood your point on the show.
I think Cersei has done nothing to better the condition of life for women. If you want Queen Elizabeth, I think that’s Dany, so that comparison to Cersei is puzzling to me. I also don’t think there’s any cause to say Catelyn had reached her full potential, that was beside my point, which was that you can’t equate modern archetypes to that time period. A career woman among the nobility is a politician and families are political units. Most careers as we know them today are for commoners. June Cleaver does not compute in Westeros. Catelyn went with Ned to see all his bannermen, just like we’re told she went with her father, so what does it mean when you say she focused on being a mother and a wife? That seems to me like terminology from modern discourse. She is the one who expressed that a woman can rule just as well as a man. We see evidence that she ran Winterfell and that she gave advice on other things. Yes she wasn’t nominally the boss, but A) neither are a lot of popular male characters B) if you only show the exceptions to the rules of the society, why choose the historical basis for the series anyway? I think people are just trying to fit things into packages that aren’t appropriate.
Also, there was a comment on the podcast about her wanting to show emotion was a liability to her as a strong female character. I think if you read GRRM’s other works you’d see that he doesn’t really consider it so. Here’s a line from one of his short stories, said by a male character about a female:
“I can’t. Dino taught me never to cry. He said tears never solve anything.”
A sad philosophy. Tears don’t solve anything, maybe, but they’re part of being human.
Honestly if you look at his whole message and not react to things based on typecasting, I think you’d find that he does not subscribe to the theory that women are emotional creatures and weak for it. More that emotions are part of being human. Read some of his interviews about his themes, he is a classical romantic and a humanist.
I really think it’s more about not having a recognizable anachronistic archetype. I am sorry (to you all) to have hijacked your comments section, and I’ll leave it at this if you’d like. Best of luck with your podcast, and again I apologize to Mimi for my initial tone.
Apr 2nd, 2008
Ash
meah, I’m still of the opinion that Catlyn was nothing to be idolized, nor did she stand out as anything but what is expected of the Lady to a great Lord.
Cercei on the other hand is a fighter, she will use whatever means possible to win to hell with everyone else. If she doesn’t win, she’ll die trying. Thing is, she’s also batshit crazy and has no morals. Again, nothing to be idolized but I would say that she has a stronger character than Catlyn – she’s not a better person, she’s certainly not doing anything to better the situation for women in society nor doing anything to convince men that she is their equal, but she’s strong willed and determined.
Catlyn is not anything but average by Westeros standards. This was the point. People here the word feminism thrown out non-chelantly and all of a sudden the only thing people can see is what defines a “feminist”. Mimi mislabeled, she went back and clarified in the next sentence, “someone who steps outside their gender role”. Her definition of what makes strong = breaking gender role. Is that synonymous with feminist? No, hence the clarification. So once again
strong =/= feminist, strong = drive and will to succeed. thereby Cercei > Catlyn.
Anyways the whole topic of gender roles was a tangent. I’m sure in the future we will tackle the topic properly in which case there are a lot of topics that were just lightly touched upon, looked into. Like the crying issue – is it a bad thing? But what if it’s done before men in power, will it damage their perspective of you as a ruler. The whole question of in a male dominated society in order to play with the boys do you have to act like a boy, or if one can still be “feminine” and still be viewed with the same level of respect as a man. My point is – we didn’t get into it. It was a tangent and therefore we weren’t really taking what we were saying seriously or trying to get into serious debate.
What this has shown me is that I have to be more careful in my editing and cut out sections were we get off topic without preparation in areas where people have strong personal opinions.
Apr 2nd, 2008
channah
Well I didn’t have a problem with any of it. Don’t be too careful, I like hearing people’s outrageous views.
Apr 3rd, 2008
Matt
I don’t know why you would edit it out. That part of the conversation sparked much more conversation, which is ultimately good for the podcast.
I think Catelyn had as much of a will to succeed as Cersei does, she just had a different definition of success. I’m generally pretty sympathetic to Catelyn, and don’t really understand all the vitriol she inspires.
Apr 3rd, 2008
Slurpee_E
I agree with Matt.
The less editing, the better. I understand feminism in Westeros wasn’t the prepared topic, but people can always clarify their opinions in the comments or forums or future podcasts. Off-the-cuff remarks and tangents give the podcast a nice conversational feel. Except the part about Tyrion standing on a stool to catch–that was just wrong.
Apr 3rd, 2008
Steve
You guys forgot some successful relationships. There are at least SOME.
-Davos and Marya Seaworth. Six or seven sons right?
-Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister – She pokes fun at him a lot, but I think there’s some genuine love there
-In the Sworn Sword, Ser Eustace and Lady Rohanne get married in the happy ending.
Other than that, there are some married couples but we don’t really know the characters well enough to say one way or another.
Apr 4th, 2008
Steve
Oh, also those two hairy gay Ibbeneese dudes who guarded Shae’s mansion. They seemed pretty happy iirc
Apr 4th, 2008
Amin
Good points Steve.
I somehow got the impression that Genna had taken lovers in the past and there was nothing Emmon Frey could do about it. Did anyone get that impression?
Apr 4th, 2008
Ranskey
Oh man, loved the discussion on Rhaegar/Lyanna. I totally agree with Chris. Lyanna went with Rhaegar by choice. He was totally into her too, there is a theory that she was the smiling knight in Meera’s story, and that when Rhaegar was trying to find the knight, he found out it was her and they fell in love. I think that Benjen helped Lyanna escape with Rhaegar, thats why he took the black. He started a war, got most of his family killed, Westeros held nothing else for him.
Apr 12th, 2008
Ranskey
Haha, forgot about this. You guys were talking about why Cersei hated Lyanna, there are 2 reasons, not 1. Rhaegar also chose Lyanna, when he would not even really look at her. Apparently, Lyanna was really hot. Lots of people say it.
Apr 12th, 2008
Mimi
ranskey- your reasoning for benjen taking the black is actually a very good idea. none of us had considered that. we recently recorded our episode about the wall and the night’s watch, and i think there was quite a lot of musing about why benjen stark was a brother of the watch. i totally didn’t even think to connect him with lyanna and rhaegar’s story. really A+ observation.
Apr 12th, 2008
Jovi
This is the first podcast I have listened to, and I freakin loved it. I thought it was witty, and pointed out some interesting points about the series. I look forward to listening to the rest.
Apr 28th, 2008
KyleM
I cant recall if the question of, Has anyone married for love?, came up in this part 1 or if it was part two so excuse me if I’m posting in the wrong section. It didnt seem like you could come up with any examples, but I believe I thought of one, if only one sided. Jorah Mormont and Lynesse Hightower. We never really know how she felt about him before they arrived at Bear Island, but we know she granted him her favor to wear at the tourney at Lannisport so I tend to think she was atleast somewhat interested. And we know beyond a doubt that he loved her. Even after she left him he still loved her.
It’s interesting to find this one example of a marriage for love and then find that it’s results are disastrous. He had marriage offers up the wazoo and could have lived a high class life, but he choose to marry for love and in doing so lost everything.
Ooo poor George. After typing that I would guess he isnt married. Is he?
May 7th, 2008
DocBean
You guys messed up the MFK!!!
you pick 3 characters and say which do you Marry, which do you F*** and which do you Kill.
Try it with Dany, Sansa, Margery.
Ned, Jon, Robb
Catlynn, Cersei, Lysa
Hodor, Tormund Giantsbane, Dunk
or make it harder:
Gregor, Sandor, Bronn.
Bitter, Reek, the Tickler
Sep 29th, 2008
DocBean
Taena DID do damage to Cersei.
She’s working for the High Sparrow, why else would they let her go?
She has info on Margery and Cersei, those Sparrows are smart birds.
Sep 29th, 2008
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