May 11, 2009
Episode 24: Pokemon Heart Gold and Soul Silver Q4 2009
Episode 24 for the week of May 10th, in which we attack chapters 49-52 of
A Game of Thrones, discuss Sansa’s merits (she has none), and compute the Syrio Forel = Jaqen H’Gar equation. Guest host Apocalypse Dan joins in to drop the knowledge on us.
54 Comments, Comment or Ping
Ashley 2
Also, for the record… I am NOT scanning anything! So don’t even ask!
May 11th, 2009
Mr.Wolf
Finally, Damn your eyes! Get it fastest next time.
May 11th, 2009
Anne
All the Sansa hate makes me sad.
May 11th, 2009
Ashley 2
Me too, Anne, me too.
May 11th, 2009
Saad
Correct me if I’m wrong but the only thing that Sansa could have told Cersei was that my dad is shipping me away. None of that was what led Cersei to act so quickly. What killed Eddard was placing trust in Littlefinger and telling Cersei that he knows about the bastards. He mentions going to the brothel where Robert’s bastard is kept. You think Cersei doesn’t know what that means. Plus Robert struck her, a psycho bitch, in the face. That is why Cersei had the king killed in the forest. She knew Eddard would tell Robert and if Robert is dead, Eddard is done. I don’t get the why a majority of the cast still blames Sansa for Eddards death when the only thing Sansa tries to do is save her fathers life by turning to Joffrey towards the end. She was naïve but I don’t blame her for his death. I use to dislike her in the early books but know I don’t really mind her.
Oct 13th, 2010
Apocalypse Dan
Awwww… I’d like Sansa a lot more if she hadn’t sold her father and sister down the river. And poor Jeyne Poole. Sansa is just her mother’s daughter though, so getting Starks killed or imperiled comes naturally.
Thanks for letting me join in the episode, it was much fun. Nothing compares to a nice, long chat with fine folks about my favorite novels of all time.
May 12th, 2009
gargant
please excuse incoming tl;dr >:
re: Sansa, she’s definitely not at her best in Game of Thrones. She does make some really poor decisions, and she has some really bitchy moments (such as her flippant regard for Jeyne Poole, as discussed). But childish bitchiness aside, and as much as I’d -like- to just blame her, you really can’t hold Sansa’s behaviour entirely against her. Or that is, her painful naivety and apparent stupidity are definitely due to the values on which she was raised. Going to Cersei about Ned’s plans was a ridiculously bad thing, but it was a very typical, silly, /young/ thing to do. I think a lot of people will have memories of trying to play adults off against each other to try and get what they want – this teacher said no? Then I’ll ask that one. Mum won’t let me go? I’ll ask dad.
It seems daft to compare, in light of the consequences, but from Sansa’s PoV it pretty much comes down to that. Daddy’s making me do this and I don’t like it, I’ll get another adult to change things. It’s a simple babyish move that crashes down on everyone tenfold, and it’s extremely frustrating to see. But hating what Sansa caused doesn’t need to be the same as hating Sansa, who was wholly oblivious and really an average kid for her time and context.
In Game of Thrones, I dislike what Sansa represents – but isn’t that intentional? Her whole arc is based around the notion of life not being a song. Watching her make these mistakes due to inherently flawed perceptions of how the world works, and how she responds to the /incredibly/ cruel reality those notions bring about, that’s Sansa Stark. From this point in the series onwards, Sansa starts stepping up. She still has big flaws to her character and a long way to go, she doesn’t just suddenly see all her errors and misconceptions and become a wily badass overnight. But she starts moving forward, outside of her bubble and into reality (whether she wants it or not). Ultimately, hating -her- for Game of Thrones seems really misdirected to me.
… or something like that, hahah. What a ridiculous first comment. Fun podcast, as ever, and FTR, I’m totally ridiculously excited for Heart Gold and Soul Silver as well. 😀
blah blah blah
May 12th, 2009
Chase
I get the Sansa thing, I really do, but sometimes I just read her chapters and start to froth. I hate spoiled little kids.
I still think she’s a bit old to be as bitchy as she is and have her age be the justifiable factor. I know a lot of 12 year olds, both higher and lower class, and her behavior certainly isn’t the norm (even if this isn’t the middle ages).
May 12th, 2009
gargant
Oh, me too. I don’t think there are any character’s who irritate me quite as frequently as Sansa Stark. I think the reason I still get annoyed with her is… although she’s definitely learning through her experiences, she’s yet to recognise any of her own mistakes or flaws, except in the context of ‘but the world didn’t respond like it was supposed to’. She’s wising up, definitely, but unlike the other Stark children she doesn’t seem to have much in the way of self-reflection. We haven’t seen much evidence of pompous bitch Sansa in a long time, but I don’t really get a sense that that side of her personality has developed or evolved – she’s just smart enough to keep her head down and her mouth shut these days.
I always think of Myrcella as being a sweet, nice kid. I wonder how that might change if she was a PoV and Sansa wasn’t? That’s kinda worrying, I don’t wanna dislike my favourite incest baby >:
May 12th, 2009
Chase
Yeah, exactly. Even as Littlefinger’s new pupil, I don’t really see much of a significant change in her except that she keeps her mouth shut.
I think Myrcella and Tommen are just too oblivious to be anything more. They got the idiot incest genes, Joffrey got the insane incest genes.
May 12th, 2009
Anthony S
I disagree about Myrcella. She seemed pretty smart in Dorne.
May 19th, 2009
Israfel070
Myrcella was beating the crown prince at fake chess, so that’s cool. She’s gonna be the new (facially scarred) strategic genius princess. Wish Dany had gotten a little character development like Myrcella somewhere between gutter rat -> Alexander the Conqueror.
Jun 8th, 2009
Apocalypse Dan
Ehh… I’ve got a 12 year old myself and she’s not snooty or shallow, nor would she sell her family out to the woman who had her wolf murdered. Going to the opposite parent to get something is indeed common practice, but going to a hostile stranger? Even though my daughter is too young to read AGOT yet (she has played the RPG and read all of the Dunk & Egg books) she assures me she’d never betray her family to the woman who had her soulbound wolf killed. And that’s good enough for me.
As for Sansa’s age excusing all her actions? Well, Bran and Arya are younger and they make much better decisions. She’s old enough to take responsibility for her actions, just like Arya did in Braavos. For the record I can and do hate Sansa. So does my wife.
May 12th, 2009
gargant
I don’t know, though, it’s not like she consciously decided to sell her family out! I mean, yeah, her actions had dire consequences on epic proportions, but you make it sound like… like her stupidly going to Cersei is on the same level as Littlefinger’s grand betrayal. The fallout might have been on the same scale, but the intent is 100% different. She thought Ned would get a jolly scolding from his big fat friend, not end up with his head on a pike!
But regardless, it’s not her age that excuses her, it’s nurture (and that’s what your kid has on her side as well, I wish my parents had me RPing and reading Hedge Knight at 12!). And excuses is too strong anyway, it’s just about whether or not she’s a ~traitor~ or a really foolish little girl. XD And fdhjsa I’m sorry if it seems like I’m saying you -shouldn’t- hate her or anything, because. that would be lousy of me, hahah. I’m just playing devil’s advocate (she’s really no great favourite of mine).
May 13th, 2009
Israfel070
George has repeatedly said that it’s hard for him to write for the kids. I guess once you’re around 60, all those 0-18 years seem equally stupid.
Jun 8th, 2009
CJB
I know I’m nitpicking at such a minor point in the podcast, but I have to disagree with Dan about Edmure. If Robb didn’t want him going after Tywin he shouldn’t have left such vague orders.
I don’t dispute that Edmure is a bit dim, but I think Robb has to take the blame for not being clear about what he wanted done.
May 12th, 2009
Apocalypse Dan
Granted, Robb blew it too. I cannot think of a single character that is flawless in the series. But Edmure is one of those guys who really racks up the bonehead awards. He calls the banners while his father is still technically in command. Then he disperses them to protect their own territories. He gets captured by the Lannisters, then screws Robb’s plan all to hell. He fails to set his father’s funeral bier alight. I might have been hasty in putting him in the same category as Sansa and Catelyn and Lysa, but it does seem that the Tully blood is ahh…challenged.
May 12th, 2009
CJB
Edmure’s definately not gifted in the brains department, but he’s a decent bloke and, as far as I can remember, is the only Lord we’ve seen who actually gives a damn about his small folk.
May 13th, 2009
Anthony S
I think Edmure’s mistake of halting Tywin on the Trident is just as much Robb’s fault. Robb should have simply told him to let Tywin cross. Maybe even fight a little, then let him cross when the main attack came, so as not to seem suspiciously easy.
May 19th, 2009
Amin
Agreed, some of us discussed this in the guys night out episode.
May 26th, 2009
Пестилънс
Sansa is an excellent character. She’s just a child who got used, how can you be angry at her?
If I turn out to be correct in my predictions for what will become of her in the next three books, you’ll see that you’ll come to love her. MWAHAHAHAHAH !
May 12th, 2009
DocBean
I don’t like the Syrio as Jaquen theory.
It ruins the best death scene in the entire series.
Syrio is dead baby.
May 13th, 2009
DocBean
just for the record, I think Davos is toast too. We’re going to see it play out in the next book.
May 13th, 2009
Chase
Manderly was very devoted to the Starks. To see him sanction what the Lannisters have done and murder an almost innocent man to appease them is unlikely. Besides, the only proof that King’s Landing got was the hanging corpse with the fingers of one hand cut down to the first knuckle. You can take any murderer or rapist out of the dungeons and mock that up pretty easily.
May 13th, 2009
DocBean
oh I know.
that’s why I think he’s toast.
NO ONE believes he’s really dead.
I hope he is, and Martin Tarantino’s it to show us what happened.
These books have to get wrapped up sooner or later.
Which means time to wipe out some POVs.
May 13th, 2009
koinosuke
But here’s hoping Davos isn’t one of those! He’s definitely in the top 6 or so POVs, and happens to have been the main viewpoint into what’s going on with Stannis. Of course, currently Jon fulfills that role (and if Mellisandre get’s a POV she’ll do so even more) but I still hope he sticks around.
May 14th, 2009
CJB
If Davos is dead, that’s really going to ruin my theory abut him being Azor Ahai.
May 14th, 2009
Apocalypse Dan
Yeah, he’s in my top three Azor Ahai candidates.
Davos (born of salt, born of fire)
Dany (yada yada)
Sandor (“reborn” in fire thanks to Gregor, “reborn” in salt (pans) thanks to the monks of the Quiet Isle)
May 14th, 2009
Lauren
You know, I never even considered that about Sandor. Huh.
May 14th, 2009
Apocalypse Dan
Can you think of a more ironic choice? He hates fire, yet clearly R’hllor picked him to defeat Dondarrion, and R’hllor is the god of fire. Azor Ahai with his burning sword…. if that guy is Sandor, ye gods!
May 14th, 2009
Lauren
Re: Ghost bringing in a hand, I’d always assumed it was a big deal because Benjen and his crew were still missing and it might be a body part belonging to one of them. Especially since John was the first to see it and he was so preoccupied with finding Benjen.
Also, I hated Sansa for the first two or three times I read through the series, but about two years ago I just couldn’t hate her anymore. She made some really, really bad decisions, yeah, but she was feeling threatened and Ned completely left her out of the loop. And she was -twelve-. It’s not a very good excuse and she pays very dearly for it, but there you go.
I blame Ned and Joffrey for Ned’s death. Ned for being stupid (WHY DID YOU TELL CERSEI, NED. YOU ASS) and Joffrey for being a spiteful little sociopath. Sansa was a pawn and hasn’t found a way to break out of the role yet.
May 14th, 2009
Jill
Do you have to be a member of Something Awful to view the forums?
May 14th, 2009
Chase
To view them, no. To post in them, yes. There are some other restrictions like threads only going up to a certain number of pages, I think, oodles of advertisements and even some forums being hidden.
And it’s only $10, the price of a 90 minute movie.
May 14th, 2009
oxmix
Ned’s motivation isn’t honor or idealism. It’s justice. Just go back and read the first few pages of book 1, chapter 1. It’s right there.
In heroic literature, gods generally represent some single aspect of the human experience, like war or sex. Heroes are godlike; they disproportionately embody some single purpose, like Achilles or Helen.
Heroes are no fun to be around. They are too single minded. Like the poet says,
Hearts to one purpose through summer and winter seem,
Enchanted to a stone to trouble the living stream.
May 15th, 2009
Chase
But it is, though. Eddard’s downfall is his belief that honor and justice will shine through and overcome the foulness in the heart of man. He is hopelessly pursuing that ideal. His ideal world of perfect honor and justice does not exist, and it most certainly can not exist.
Eddard’s motivation certainly is idealism. The ideal that the world can be a perfect place, if only Man would overcome their flaws. Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride. There can be no light without dark. There can be no good without evil. There can be no virtue without vice. This is reality. Eddard constantly blinds himself to this.
His belief that Cersei will do what is smart and honorable and bow out with the knowledge that her children born of incest have no claim to the throne is a great example. What he chooses to look past is that Cersei is the epitome of every one of those seven sins listed above. He believes she will overcome the darkness of her soul in the face of Eddard’s true light.
Give me a break.
May 15th, 2009
oxmix
Okay, I’ll give you a break.
Ned is an idealist of sorts, but it is just one ideal: justice. Chastity, love, and industry are ideals too, but they aren’t Neds.
Killing children is unjust, so Ned will never go along with it. He disrespects his king a a council meeting before he will have anything to do with an injustice. Killing children is always unjust, even if they are the children of Lanister incest or the grandchildren of the man who killed your brother.
On a releated note, Chase, you refered to Sansa as “a dumb, little cunt.” Isn’t that pretty much a pejoritive description of “maiden”? No offence to the maiden community intended here. Some of my best friends are maidens. You can say “innocent, little flower” instead of “dumb, little cunt” if you like.
May 18th, 2009
jude
I completely agree, Chase.
Ned’s isn’t so much stupid as he is unrealistic – he truly believes that everyone has the potential to be exactly like him, and never once considers that people have different priorities. He tries to appeal to Cersei’s humanity and maternal instincts, bringing her to his level, but doesn’t realize that honor and nobility have never really gotten her anywhere, and that her ruthlessness up until that point was necessary for her to maintain power (or, at least she thinks she has).
The thing is, Ned’s willingness to blind himself to the realities of human nature was not his biggest flaw, in my opinion. I’ve always thought that he turned down both Renly and Littlefinger because he didn’t want to be part of anything that could besmirch his honor. Declaring Joff as the rightful heir could have been a smart move, but Ned was thinking first and foremost of preserving the image that he had of himself as a just man. He’s no idiot – he knew the cost of what he was doing, and Littlefinger warned him that his family would be in danger, but Ned’s decision was more selfish than foolish.
Hope I haven’t offended any hardcore Ned fans, lol. This was a great episode besides, and I fully support the theory that Syrio killed Meryn and is masquerading as him/was at some point. It’s highly improbable, but that’s why I like it.
May 25th, 2009
Mr.Wolf
Btw, you all completely dropped the fucking ball talking about the last chapter!!! It was an arya chapter so don’t go completely off topic just because one host dislikes the character. There was so much left untouched with the current chapter because of your insistence of skipping ahead with arguments that will ‘have’ to be discussed once you get to the future chapters anyway! STAY THE FUCK ON TOPIC!
May 16th, 2009
Anonymous
You need to calm the fuck down.
May 18th, 2009
Mr.Wolf
I am entitled to my opinion.
May 19th, 2009
Jenn
Did one of you mention a Robert’s Warhammer forum or something like that? I’m being lazy asking because I don’t want to go back and re-listen to the whole podcast(even though I enjoyed it) BTW- Apocolypse Dan was very good as guest host. Miss Amin and Ashley 1 and Aaron. Nancy needs to speak up more.
May 17th, 2009
Apocalypse Dan
Thanks Jenn, it was a real honor being on and something I;m sure I’d enjoy doing again.
May 17th, 2009
Chase
No, I was talking about a Warhammer 40k crossover that someone over at Something Awful is writing. Here’s one link to it that I could find in the thread. It’s not your typical shitty fanfic.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XEXR9N3B
May 18th, 2009
Sansafan
Just read that the rights to ASOIAF have been sold to a video game developer. Oh dear….
May 18th, 2009
Apocalypse Dan
I can think of worse developments. Roleplaying or even video gaming in an environment makes it more approachable and personal. I know I was a mega-huge ASOIAF nut before playing the tabletop RPG, but afterwards the characters were so much more alive and important to me. They were people I had spoken with or made into enemies. For anyone who liked D&D or other fantasy RPGs at all, I cannot recommend enough playing at least a few campaigns in Westeros.
May 18th, 2009
dancer
What has happened to Chris? Was it him or Ben that got a tree on his house or has Mimi killed him?
May 22nd, 2009
Somebody
Ben got the tree on his house. Chris… Mimi just says that he’s not with them and that’s it. Dead? Fired? He’s my favorite…
May 31st, 2009
israfel070
Nathan Fillion as Jory!!!!
May 27th, 2009
bugsbane
Mimi that was way funny:
“You couldn’t play Eddard Stark. And if you could, the game would be kinda short”
Jun 3rd, 2009
Moirne
Hey guys I’m a new listener and I’ve been trying to catch up on all the episodes for a few weeks now. Your episodes make me laugh, so thank you for the entertainment 🙂
That being said, can you please stop flaming Sansa Stark all the time? It seems like everyone rants about her at least once every episode, but this one was really bad. I don’t like her either, I don’t think anyone does in AGOT… but it’s just ridiculous to make fun of a 12 year old girl and to blame her for everything. Chase, we know you hate her and think she’s a spoiled bitch, so can we move on now? Please! I’m not saying this to be mean because I really enjoy your episodes, but I want to hear about other characters. Maybe you should skip Sansa chapters or just go over them briefly that way it doesn’t turn into a bitch fest about her.
Jun 11th, 2009
Amy
To echo what a couple other posters have said: *thumbs up* for Apocalypse Dan. I also now support the Syrio = Jaqen H’Gar theory. I don’t see the point of leaving his death open-ended if he really died and that’s all there was to it..
About Sansa –
On reread I don’t hate her quite as much, but that’s only because the amount I hated her before was unhealthy. How she was raised isn’t excuse enough for the person she became. I’m sure Ned also tried to instill some sort of Stark loyalty in her – to make her see that she and Arya are on the same side. But she gladly ignored that. She spares Arya very little thought or concern (even if Arya is kind of crazy) and I’ve never found her nearly remorseful enough over her actions.
Jun 15th, 2009
Ashley 2
As I recall, I’m pretty sure Arya spares Sansa very little thought or concern as well.
Jun 16th, 2009
Amy
Yep, that’s true. But I’m more willing to let that slide in Arya since she saw Sansa at Ned’s beheading and at least knew she was alive. Sansa had zero idea what had become of Arya and it didn’t seem to bother her.
The part that most annoyed me was the whole – completely forgetting to ask about Arya when she first talks to Cersei after being captured. It’s not an argument for why Arya’s better than Sansa, because neither one is my favourite. It just demonstrates one reason I didn’t like her.
Jun 18th, 2009
Chip
I still don’t believe the Syrio is Jaqen H’Gar theory. Reasons; For Syrio to be Jaqen, he would’ve had to been arrested but I sincerely do not think Trant would’ve let him live. However the other possibilty is Syrio beat Trant, but didn’t kill him obviously, got away and then transformed into Jaqen and got arrested.
Two; one of the reasons people think Syrio is Jaqen is because we don’t see him die or hear about it, and with many of Martin’s characters those who we don’t know to die for sure, come back somehow. Characters coming back (in some form or other) is true, but I think it’s major characters. Syrio was in a couple chapters to help build up Arya. I don’t think his character was meant to be much more than that. Of course there is another side to this, if Syrio is a faceless man, introducing him set up his role (Jaqen, Pate @ Citadel) and set up Arya’s future on Bravos.
Oct 11th, 2009
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