Episode 5: The Creepy Ninja
Episode 5 for the week of April 20th, in which we discuss the religions of the series, compare ourselves to the seven deities of the faith, and talk about boobs (boob talk not included). Thanks for participating in the poll, everyone! If you’d like, please comment and share your reasoning for your favorite ASOIAF religion.
Also, we’d like to give a big thank you to Tower of the Hand for their recent post about our podcast, and welcome the new listeners who followed over from their link. Our goal to make it to 100 subscribers is becoming a possibility! On the day we do, Aaron and Chris will post pictures of themselves dressed up as the ASOIAF characters of your choice.
P.S. – And once again, I mess up and tell Aaron to say “week of April 22nd” in the intro. I’m double-fired.
85 Comments, Comment or Ping
Michael Natale
Once you hit 100 subs here’s my suggestions for Chris & Aaron:
Chris – Moonboy
Aaaron – Patchface
Keep up the good work, I’m really enjoying this podcast.
Apr 22nd, 2008
Aaron
I never agreed to dressing up đ
Apr 22nd, 2008
Ash
lies, you were fighting over who got to wear the bustier
Apr 22nd, 2008
mimi
i distinctly remember both you wanting to be shae.
Apr 22nd, 2008
Chris
I’ll dress up as long as we canfigure out which one of you has the biggest boobs (not counting Aaron.) Ladies please take a topless pic and send them to us so we can judge. It’s only fair.
Apr 23rd, 2008
mimi
as your cohost i find that sort of banter to be seriously offensive and tactless sexual harassment. we are a dedicated, professional podcast about a book series, not breasts.
Apr 23rd, 2008
Anonymous
boobies
Apr 23rd, 2008
Jakob Lightbringer
Great work, again! And virtually no degradation into meaningless sexual innuendo — oh well, I guess you can’t have everything.
Anyway, I felt that the power of the weirwood trees were not properly represented in this episode, so I compiled this list of events in the books in which the powers of the weirwood trees was demonstrated.
* Crippled Bran has a prophetic dream in which a weirwood tree calls out to him. (Three Eye’d Crow?)
* Maester Luwin discusses with Bran how Greenseers claimed to be able to see through the eyes of the weirwood trees.
* Jon has a prophetic wolf-dream in which he sees a weirwood tree with a face similar to Bran’s only with three eyes.
* Jaime has his prophetic dream about Brienne while sleeping on the stump of a weirwood tree.
* The Ghost of Highheart has obvious prophetic powers and lives at the remnants of what was once a weirwood forest.
So if there’s any justice, maybe in your next podcast, you can discuss the obvious prophecy enhancing properties of the weirwood trees.
By the way I would like, at this time, to volunteer my discerning expert eye for any costume and/or body-part size judging contests.
Apr 23rd, 2008
Slurpee_E
I find that I agree with Amin a lot. Especially about R’hllor and the two aspects we see of that religion, and about dragons being a symptom of magic returning and not the cause, so *respect knuckles* to Amin.
Apr 23rd, 2008
Alex
If you want any rock hard PROOF of the Wierwoods having power, look at Bran and Sam, et al. crossing the wall. He walked down a well and SPOKE to a TREE that opened its mouth and let them cross. I mean, come on! talking tree?! if you need proof that the old gods have power, then there it is!
Apr 23rd, 2008
UlteriorMotive3
No one said Arya for the Stranger?
Apr 23rd, 2008
Steve
The one thing that always comes into my mind when I read it is that everyone has their own readings of the prophecies. In a commons fantasy series we might see the Gods and faiths/religions fighting. However, Martin has stated several times that his Gods are not so active.
Although magic is becoming more prevalent, I can’t foresee an all out war between Gods. They will simply work through the various magic and prophecies. Even if Dany or Stannis or Hot Pie happens to be Azor, I doubt it will be a full on God walking the earth kind of thing.
I would just hate to see Martin give us the old Deus Ex Machina, and I think really active Gods lend themselves to this solution.
Thoughts?
P.S. Boobs are great and so are you guys!
Apr 23rd, 2008
Aaron
The problem with your theory is that Hot Pie already is a God walking on earth. Being Azor Ahai means he will just be even more Godly.
Apr 23rd, 2008
Jakob Lightbringer
I agree. Hot Pie is definitely Azor Ahai. The other two “heads of the dragon” are Hodor and Patchface. It is known.
Apr 24th, 2008
Steve
it is known
Apr 24th, 2008
ulteriormotive3
Oh man Mimi is the best for choosing the Drowned God.
Apr 24th, 2008
Carly
Hey, long time listener, first time commenter. Thank you doing these podcasts! Hilarious and brilliant. Keep it up. đ I’d ask to be a part of it, but I’m having too much fun yelling at my computer speakers in response instead.
Mimi, are you hosting the chat? Because your voice comes through much, much softer than everyone else. Less radio crackle, but still very quite.
(And I voted for the Drowned God too! Even though it’s basically cpr, yeah.)
Apr 25th, 2008
mimi
carly: yes, i’m hosting. honestly, i’ve been concerned about my voice coming through a bit quietly, but whenever i turn up my mic, chris complains that i am super loud. i’ll definitely fix that next time, though. and to hell with chris!
but i’m really glad you have fun listening to us. consider dropping in on recording as a guest host sometime if you want to get in on this madness!
Apr 25th, 2008
Anjou
Great job everyone!
Chris- Ser Loras
Aaron- Renly
Now now, don’t take it the wrong way, but it would be hilarious! You guys are interesting to listen to and keeps me sane until ADWD. I need more Targaryen though. We will have to after she takes King’s Landing!
Apr 25th, 2008
Chris
Why does Aaron get to be the top?
Apr 25th, 2008
Anjou
Considering you are a hamster, it would be a bit more believable đ
Apr 25th, 2008
Carly
Hahah, well, if you ever plan an episode on how Jon’s really the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar and OMG he’s going to save all of us from the back of a massive fire-breathing dragon, and you want a dissenting opinion on the matter, I’ll hook you up. ^__^ I just don’t like that theory.
Apr 26th, 2008
Turncloak
TotH user here, listening sincfe it was linked, first comment.
I agree that the stuff on the Old Gods was not done properally, but other than that great podcast.
Perhaps in the next ‘cast you guys can discuss homages that GRRM makes, to refresh your memory you might go to westeros.org, there’s a topic in general, pinned, talks about homages and allusions.
Apr 26th, 2008
Ashley 2
Carly, you and I share the same opinion. I thought I was one in a million! We should make a club or something.
Apr 27th, 2008
Mo
Add a third member to your club because I agree about the Dragon warrior Jon theory. Its crap! I would punch Martin in the face if he gave in to that LALALA Fantasy crap. He is not Anne McCaffrey!
So far we have Beric, Catelyn, Coldhands, FrankenGregor, and the wights. At some point Dany will fly in on her dragons and lead The Seven Kingdoms in a Thriller dance off thus saving The Seven Kingdoms from their doom… Just a thought.
P.S. Chris is going to be Tyrion and Aaron will be Shae.
Apr 27th, 2008
Anjou
I agree, I suppose all those who oppose R+L=J have flocked in droves to this podcast.
Apr 27th, 2008
Enderlost
I gotta third the sense of dissatisfaction with the coverage of the old gods. To me, they seem to have the MOST power over their lands, but it only extends as far south as the Neck and scattered weirwoods spread throughout southron lands.
I also agree with Chris about the nature of the Drowned God’s ritual and it being an extension of that one’s power.
Oh as for R+L=J, I agree with it but I don’t think he’s the PWWP/AA. A couple of the prophesy facts just don’t fit.
Apr 28th, 2008
Carly
Oh how the internet brings us all together! I’ve been spending too much time on the asoiaf board. I thought I was alone. đ I don’t think I would so far as to punch Martin in the face, but I would be pretty disappointed.
Anyway, Ashley 2!! Defend our position well, should it ever come up in conversation! đ That’s awesome. We’ve got an underground resistance movement or something.
Apr 28th, 2008
Jovi
Amusing as always. Except it didn’t seem like the usual fire was there, maybe it’s cause religion is boring!!! đ Looking forward to the next podcast.
Apr 29th, 2008
Aaron
Not to steal Mimi’s role as the PR person running the actual blog, but this week’s episode is going to be late again.
Go finals!
In other news, pandora.com has lost all credibility for me. How is Porcupine Tree and Pure Reason Revolution at all like Puddle of Mudd.
Apr 29th, 2008
Anjou
We’ll let it slide…this time.
Just kidding, I just finished up and am now graduating! Hope you all did well and look forward to the next podcast!
Apr 30th, 2008
Ranskey
All I can say is, you guys need some Stark love besides Chris and his JS obsession. I mean arya, sansa, and bran are pretty much awesome too. Not just Jon. I’m gonna have to come on one day and explain to you guys why Sansa is a great character.
Apr 30th, 2008
Jovi
Hey Ranskey…The Starks suck! GO LANNISTERS!!! đ
Apr 30th, 2008
Mo
Yeah, Sansa is a good character like hepatitis is a good disease…
Apr 30th, 2008
Enderlost
Hey, she’s gotten better.
btw
Love the creepy ninja comment. Reminds me of that Simpson’s episode with the Triad and Mob fighting
Apr 30th, 2008
Ash
YES! at last, someone got my reference!
May 1st, 2008
mimi
arya and sansa are actually two of my favorite POVs.
May 1st, 2008
Mo
Sansa is necessary/a realistic character. She’s kind of a foil for Arya or Extra Crispy Face. I don’t like her, because I know people just like her.
It shows Lord George’s skill that he is able to write a character like Sansa.
Arya is my favorite.
May 1st, 2008
Ranskey
Aye, Arya is my favorite character too. Her and Jon are head and shoulders above the rest, but I can’t stand it when people like Ned and hate Sansa, she is just like him, and he and that dumbass Catelyn made her that way.
May 2nd, 2008
Anjou
Dany and Sansa are favs. Jon just doesn’t do it for me
May 2nd, 2008
Jovi
Sansa is a weakling who allows others to dictate her actions, Arya is a sociopath who seems more blood-thirsty than The Mountain That Rides. Sansa is the more believable character, and Arya the more dislikeable. Either way, the women of House Stark make me ill.
May 2nd, 2008
lina
ranskey, you took the words right out of my mouth… Sansa IS just like Ned! They are two of my favorites, and Sansa-hate makes me sad. Hey guys, call me in if you ever need a guest-speaker-Sansa-apologist… I’ve spent a lot of time arguing with people about her. đ
May 2nd, 2008
Matt
You will all eat your words when Sansa rules Robb’s kingdom plus the Vale with the political skills of littlefinger after she murders him at just the right moment to solidify her kingdom of the North just in time to join her strength with Dany and fight off the winter that is coming!
(yay for run on sentences)
May 2nd, 2008
Aaron
I don’t see how Sansa is anything like Eddard. True, maybe Eddard was wrong in essentially raising her for the sole purpose of making someone happy, but that has nothing to do with them being alike. But she’s been alone for some time now.
For me most of her character has hinged around two possibilites:
1) She is the epitome of a ‘disney princess’. Waiting for some rich handsome and otherwise perfect man to come save her. Martin’s obviously given us a lot of hints that Sandor will most likely be that person. He is neither handsome, nor exactly a pillar of morality or anything like she really wants. But she will settle for him, because he’s better than nothing, and she can’t bear to be alone.
2) She is REALLY screwed in the head and suffering extreme cases of Stockholm Syndrome. I need to re-read, but I can’t recall any moment where she admits to herself that Joffrey is a horrible person. This is the kid that lied, got her father beheaded in front of her, abused her, had his knights abuse her, and more. Now she’s in the hand of Littlefingers, who is starting to become some sort of creepy child molestor or something, and she’s doing the same damn things. I will admit that she obviously wasn’t happy with Joffrey, nor Littlefinger, but again, I can’t recall her EVER actually admitting that they are geniune assholes.
For either of those, that’s why I don’t really like Sansa. I realize that my first rant can have the wind taken out of it by saying ‘Welp thats just how they did things. Politics.’ Ok, I’ll let you have that. Regardless of politics, though, Sansa shows no signs of individualism. She lives vicariously through the people that are around her, and doesn’t think twice about it.
I like the politics surrounding her POV, but good lord she is hopeless. Arya stabbed that kid in the stables for her first kill. I have a feeling Sansa would have just stood there if it was her in Arya’s place. Or, if they were together, she would tell Arya what a bad person she was for murdering someone. Sansa is a black and white character in a very grey world.
May 2nd, 2008
Ranskey
She is exactly like Ned Stark, naive, gullible, and noble to the bone. She was raised by her parents to be a tool. Sadly she got only those parts from her father, and her looks from her mother. Arya on the other hand, got her looks from her father, and her mothers cruelty, which has kept her alive this long. Sansa was made a tool, and she did personally renounce Joffrey several times, she even enjoyed his death. She thought about shoving him off a tower. Plus, she is only 13 years old, seriously every 13 year old girl can’t be Danerys or Arya.
May 2nd, 2008
lina
Aaron, your first point is true enough at the beginning of the series, but I think Sansa’s character development is leading her in a very different direction. A lot of the appeal of SanSan shipping comes from the fact that Sandor is a subversion of everything she ever wanted as a naive child. If they end up together, I don’t believe it will be because she “settles” for him out of loneliness. It will be because she’s matured, and really fallen in love with him.
But then again, I’m a hopeless romantic just like Sansa… =/
May 2nd, 2008
Aaron
Ranskey: I think calling Ned naive and gullible is a bit strong. He knew there were traps. He knew what the game was about. He thought he could beat the game by playing with different rules. He happened to suck at the game, even with his own rules though. Really, REALLY suck. I suppose the only thing that I see Ned being naive about is that the minor pawns (i.e. Littlefinger) can be just as dangerous as the Queen.
Lina: Thats a good point. She is on the road for change (or at least, again, thats what Martin has implied with her and Sandor). It’s taken four books for that to happen, though. At the moment, she’s still pretty delusional that someone else is going to come and save her. I don’t see her killing Littlefinger. She hasn’t exhibited anything so far to make me think that she will take her own destiny into her own hands for once. Again, she’s always relying on others, and living vicariously.
May 2nd, 2008
Enderlost
Aaron,
There are numerous moments where she says that Joffrey is an evil little bastard. The most telling of which is where she informs the Tyrells about what hes really like (Where she first talks with the Queen of Thorns and the marriage to Willas is proposed). She’s simply terrified of the things that Joffrey has done to her.
As for The Stark women, The only one I really really can’t stand is Catelyn. She doesn’t do anything, never excepts responsibility and screws everything up.
Arya is wild, that statement is reinterated again and again in the course of the books. She’s more an animal at this point than a human.
Sansa has gotten much better. I am personally looking forward to her becoming more a Littlefinger proxy in female form. I just hope they don’t sleep together *shudders*
May 3rd, 2008
Ranskey
Ha, Ned not naive. He thinks for 15 years that Robert is running the kingdom, and he hasn’t done a thing. He knew him and his ways, he should have known better. He is gullible, he trusts little finger, varys, he even trusts Cersei at one point lol. When she plays him right before the coup. Sansa told the queen about Ned’s plans in a moment of stupidity and weakness.Hmmm, where have I seen that before, oh yeah, Ned cut Lady’s head off in a moment of stupidity and weakness. Ned Stark was a good man, but very naive and very gullible. He basically trusted everyone except the Lannisters. And never forget Ned and Catelyn are the ones who threw Sansa to the lions in the first place….
May 3rd, 2008
Enderlost
I think Ned’s “gullibility” or trust issues stem not from himself, but the culture of the North. The Northmen are all gruff, open and honest. The major exception being the Boltons. It is extremely hard for someone who has dealt with simple, honest people their whole lives to suddenly have to deal with the people of King’s Landing.
May 4th, 2008
Jovi
How is Sansa to end up with Sandor? Sandor is dead. That travelling priest found him fevered from his fight with Polliver and the Tickler, and took care of him until he died.
May 4th, 2008
Ranskey
A ton of people believe that when that guy said “The Hound” is dead, that he just meant that personality. That Sandor Clegane is still alive and being rehabilitated lol. Fat chance.
May 4th, 2008
mimi
jovi- you might want to reread one of brienne’s chapters in AFFC. particularly the one in which she visits the quiet isle and notices a particularly large novice who shows signs of having a lame leg and is petting a dog.
May 4th, 2008
Jovi
Really??? *reading*
May 4th, 2008
Jovi
May the Seven bugger me with a sword, you’re right Mimi. I have read AFFC more times than I care to count, and I never noticed that scene on the Isle of Faces. I feel quite foolish. *bows head in shame*
May 4th, 2008
Jovi
On a completely un-related subject I need to say something…I just struggled through a viewing of “Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas” and must say it is the worst Johnny Depp movie I have EVER seen. I am a huge fan of his, and heard that this movie was good, but it was crap. Just needed to vent.
May 4th, 2008
Mo
First off,
Jovi- You probably haven’t done enough drugs to understand the beauty that is Depp’s Hunter H. Thompson. (Don’t get me wrong, I think the movie sucks too.)
Secondly,
To all y’all raving about the Hound and Sansa hooking up, don’t you think that would kind of be dissatisfying? The reason that readers were so moved by the Sandor/Sansa moments was the fact that he was vulnerable and he saw everything in Sansa that he wasn’t.
Providing we are all correct and assuming that the hound is dead, but Sandor is not, then I believe we might see a pious Sandor who devotes himself to God. I don’t see them actually hooking up. I see it being a change of heart and Sansa maybe realizing she has feeling for him then, if they ever see each other again at all. . . sorry to break your heart Ashley.
Finally a word on Ned
I think it’s Tyrion who acutually points it out to him that he’s being selfish. Not directly, but the subtext is there. If its not him its Varys.
Ned puts his and his families honor over everything. The only true noble and good thing he tried to do during his last days was “admitting” his guilt in the hopes to save his family.
I agree with Aaron when he says Ned is just terrible at playing the game of thrones. He’s not naive, he just wants to win without loosing any of his precious honor.
The really heroic thing to do would be whatever it took to keep his family and everyone he cared about safe. Screw his honor.
Which actually ties very well into Jaime and the fact that he is condemned by the people he saved. Jaime didn’t kill Areys because he thought it was the most honorable thing to do, but because it was the right and only thing to do.
He sacrificed his own honor for the good of his family.
May 4th, 2008
Jovi
I’m inclined to agree with Mo, concerning Ned and Jaime anyway.
May 5th, 2008
Enderlost
Yes, but we do see that with Ned. At least if we assume that Jon is not Ned’s kid and is actually Lyanna’s. He suffers every time he talks about Jon.
And as for the Aerys thing, You talk as if Ned wouldn’t have done the same thing in that case. In fact, I believe that most of the characters would have done the same thing even Dayne or Hightower.
Ned also sacrificed his honor for the realm when he changed Robert’s words in the will and tried to force Cersei out.
May 5th, 2008
Mo
The fact that he might have done the same thing as Jaime doesn’t make him any less of a hypocrite. Jaime is honest about who he is and has never pretended to be anything he’s not. He’s selfish, vain, egotistical, cold hearted, and all that, but when people call him those things he agrees with them.
Ned on the other hand (I liked Ned alot and am probably more like Ned than I would like to admit.) Ned was Selfish because honor was more important than anything to him. Even with the whole Jon thing, he says over and over again about how it was the honorable thing to do. You can’t compare that to the sacrifice of having to be seen as a terrible person. The fact that he took in Jon and raised him as a son only helps his honor, it doesn’t hurt it.
To do something that doesn’t benefit you but helps those around you is a more noble gesture.
In my view Jaime is probably one of the most honorable people in the book. He did everything he did for love, for his father, for his sister, and for his brother.
Ned is a well intentioned guy, and to say that he is naive is false. He was a wise man and a true patriot. That does not however make him any better than the rest.
The “least honorable” people of the series are who? The Hound, who sacrificed most of his life for a boy he didn’t even like and is the single most honest person in the seven kingdoms. Varys, who does everything in his power to protect the realm (not saying that what he’s doing is good or bad), and Jaime a man who is condemned for doing what everyone else wanted to do.
You can’t compare people like those to a person like Ned. Ned lived a life like a regular person had great kids, a dutiful wife, and a kickass castle. Those other guys have nothing!
May 5th, 2008
Ranskey
Rofl, Ned not naive. He lived his whole adult life thinking Robert was running the kingdom. He puts his trust in Littlefinger, the man in King’s Landing who has the most reason to hate him. He thinks his honor will win him through every situation. Just because he knew when he stepped into the game of thrones that he was actually in the game does not make him any less naive lol. It is like Cersei, she is even more naive than most, she creates enemies where there aren’t any when the real snakes are often in her bed…
May 5th, 2008
Mo
As Cersei said, “When you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die!”
Its exactly like chess. . .
He thought he had Cersei in check. He didn’t see any other move to make! He didn’t go to her because he thought he was going to make her cry and embrace him as her brother.
As for Littlefinger, he was the closest thing to a friend he had in kings landing at that point who had any sort of power. Petyr was Cat’s childhood friend, why not go to him? Once again he exhausted all other options before turning to him
Does that make him naive or a bad chess player?
May 5th, 2008
Ranskey
Absolutely, you go to the man, that you know has reason to hate your whole family and wants your wife for himself, that makes u stupid and naive. He shouldn’t have went to Cersei at all, that was dumb as hell, if he would have just kept his mouth shut and told Robert instead of letting her know he knew, he could of avoided all the trouble. Never tell your enemies your moves, thats the first rule of chess lol.
May 5th, 2008
Aaron
Mo, I disagree that raising Jon helped Ned’s honor. The guy claimed it was his bastard, and demanded his wife take him in as one of their own whether she like it or not. Look at it from a noble’s point of view and not our own skewed one. In their heraldry and politics, it’s a slap to the face to Catelyn, and the Tully house. Look at Robb. He might have done something ‘honorable’ by our point of view (and would have been cemented in further if he had lived longer), but the Frey’s were pissed to high hell, and they had a right to be, despite how much I hate every single last one of them.
May 5th, 2008
Mo
I see what your saying. And to me and you it makes perfect sense to keep our mouths shut. However, it doesn’t make sense to Ned.
Ned chooses to be the way he is, which is why he is not naive, simply stubborn and even a little stupid. Choice is what makes Ned noble, and is the reason he thinks he’s so noble.
He could have said no to Robert and not gone to war, but he chose to.
He could have said no to Robert again we he was asked to be the hand, but he chose to.
He could have chose to play Cersei and Littlefinger’s game but he chose not to.
Ned never speaks as if he’s sure that what he’s going to do will fix everything. He simply applies his morals universally hoping they will work in that situation.
Compared to someone like Sansa, who is very naive, because she doen’t realize she has any other options and actually believes that what she’s doing is going to fix everything.
*see sansa chapters for generic repeat, “No! No! No! That’s not the way its suppose to be!.”
*see Ned chapters for generic, “Fuck! This isn’t working, oh well I’m still not giving in and being sneaky.”
May 5th, 2008
Mo
Aaron: As for Ned and Jon.
well, I guess I was just trying to see it from ned’s perspective of, Its the right thing to do. Ned felt it was honorable.
I totally agree that in the view of everyone else it doesn’t help his honor. Also, since we don’t have a very good view of Ned/Jon’s past, I could be totally wrong.
May 5th, 2008
Ranskey
naive – having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information
The key word in that definition is or. Ned may have had information, but his experience and judgment in the game of thrones are completely terrible. He not only fits one part of being naive, but 2, he is most definitely naive, you cannot dispute this, unless u want to dispute the definition which is an official definition lol.
May 5th, 2008
Mo
I get what your saying.
He does lack experience and judgment in the game of thrones.
Yet don’t you think that’s like saying that I lack experience and judgment at football (I don’t play or have any desire to play football.)?
May 5th, 2008
Jovi
I’ve always found it interesting that people consider Ned to be the epitome of honor. He did rebel against the rightful king of Westeros, and helped, indirectly, in the destruction of a royal family. Ned always said it was evil of Tywin for killing the heirs of House Targaryen, but he had to know that was going to be the end result after deposing King Aerys. You can’t leave scions of a house you’re destroying alive, too many future chances of rebellion. I dunno, naive and over-rated in honor is my opinion of Ned Stark. I was much fonder of Robb.
May 5th, 2008
Ranskey
I like Ned alot. But I agree with you completely on your analysis of him. If Ned was truly as honorable as he claimed to be then he would have taken Jon to court and not worried about the ridicule that would follow him. But I think thats why Ned is a great character, Martin made Ned to show that even the most honorable men have flaws.
May 5th, 2008
Wormlips
Hi I just wanted to touch on something about Ned that people haven’t been covering. Iâm not going to cover his role as the Kingâs Hand and the messy situation that he brought his family into. I largely blame Catelyn for everything that followed. Were it not for her urging him to elevate his position and match the Starks to royalty the ugliness of a game of thrones would never have happened. Regardless this fact hasnât stopped people cursing Ned as naive, selfish, a self-righteous do gooder etc. But somehow I don’t think that GRRM would approve of these simplistic notions.
Most of what we know of Ned comes from a game of thrones. WE, as a reader, observe the way he interacts with the world and tackles each problem to pop up. Now I will openly admit that I believed his final machinations in plotting the denouncement of joffrey had some chance of success. Sure I could see a great risk in trusting littlefinger but to have him in league with Cersei?? Think of it this way. If he had sided with Ned, the goldcloaks would have taken Cersei and her children into custody whilst Ned attempted to contact Stannis. Remember he wanted to pass the crown to Stannis as he felt would have been justified. This makes it more ironic that Stannis confesses to having no real like of Ned. Catelynâs stupidity in kidnapping Tyrion is a major mistake. This triggered Tywin to mobilized House Lannister into war against the riverlands. And yet Lysaâs letter to Catelyn was inspired by Littlefinger. So ouch! Littlefinger has been cooking up his revenge all along. Our Lord Baelish is definitely a major player, higher than the great houses themselves.
But back to Dead Ned. What little we know about his past suggests that he never wanted the title of Lord of Winterfell. It was expected that Brandon Stark would wed and bed Catelyn Tully, pop out a dozen or so auburn haired lords and ladies, whilst quiet shy Ned would marry Asha Dayne and live happily ever after. The âabductionâ of Lyanna would change everything. I recall him once saying to Catelyn how Brandon should have been the true Lord. Brandon was everything Ned was not. From what we hear of Brandon in snippets from Catelyn and Ned, he was a passionate man who seemed to enjoy social situations. Catelynâs recollection of the duel with littlefinger stemmed from his desire to fight for her honor. Brandon would have killed Littlefinger were it not for Catelyn. To me, Brandon has a lot of Robert Baratheon in him. Both would fight for the honor of lady (and a heap of pride). In Brandonâs case, he literally challenged Aerys to bring out his son for a duel to the death. You donât get any more hot blooded and all lordy-lord than that. Overall, Brandon was a warm and hearty guy, which is possibly why Ned became such close friends with his fellow ward Robert. I have no doubt that Robert was the older brother to Ned where Brandon was not present.
Ned Stark is not a fool. he is simply naĂŻve of the politics and corruption of the south. As a game of thrones develops Ned begins to realise the extant of the degradation in Kingâs Landing. Ned knew Littlefinger didnât like him. He tolerated a bunch of insults cast at him by Baelish without ever going nasty back at him (although I do recall that when it came to Catelyn in a whore house he was VERY peeved). I gather that if Brandon was facing Baelish he would laid a serious smack down on him and possibly left him for the fishes.
Basically Ned is a cold guy. What this means is that he is reserved, as is attested to by Catelyn, and doesnât really open up to people. I dunno maybe itâs the whole love of trees since heâs always so comfy talking to the Old gods. On that subject, is he pious? Or does he just seek comfort from the horrors of the world? I mean his father, brother and sister all died in a very short time span. That has definitely got to have some serious repercussions on the stability of an individual. He had to marry a woman that might as well have been considered to be his new sister-to-be by marriage. At the same time he sacrificed the relationship that he already had with his first true love. When it comes to the infamous honor everyone has choked him with, I think he was just trying to emulate Brandon and Jon Arryn. There is a sense that Jon Arryn was more a father to him than Lord Rickard ever was. I guess GRRM intentionally makes no real mention of Nedâs relationship with his father. Again this is probably due to Jon Arrynâs closer influence on young Ned. To me, Eddard Stark became the man that he was through loss and sorrow. The similarity with Jonâs maturity in the series is in the character of Ygritte. Asha Dayne is Eddard Starkâs Ygritte. A tragic romance that culminated in the boy becoming a man. Without going too much into Jon, Ned connects to him more than his other children. This is revealed immediately in Branâs opening chapter in a game of thrones. Jon suggests that the wolves were meant for Nedâs children and seeing as how there were only 5 to begin, Jon has automatically cast himself out of the equation. Bran thinks for a moment that Ned loves Jon more than his own sone Robb. Ned was the unlikely heir to the lordship of winterfell. Like Jon, he never could have imagined ever inheriting the ancient seat of Stark. Jonâs disposal to the Wall was largely due to Catelynâs meddling with her childrenâs futures. I recall Ned wanting Jon to stay on as a retainer of Robb when he inherited winterfell. But once Ned and the girls were to move south, with Robb inheriting Winterfell and Catelyn being a nasty stepmother, Jon had no one to remain with. Ned was the focal point for all of this. WELL I have failed to retreat from a Jon spiel, forgive me.
What was that Tower that haunts Ned to his last days? Something like 7 lords marched in and only Ned and his Cannogman buddy came out. I mean if I were Ned I would be thinking âWOW! How the hell did I survive that?!?â Was Lyanna also in that Tower? If so that event would have been a serious blow to anyone. Ned is clearly traumatised by the event. Not only did the War of the Usurper take this young man through a bloody hazing but it culminated in the loss of almost everyone he loved. To that end Jon Arryn, Robert, and Benjen would become the only family that he had left. I have no doubt that he eventually came to care for Catelyn, especially after she gave birth to 5 of his children. But in the aftermath of the war Ned needed to start fresh and Catelyn was merely a catalyst for his own personal healing. Again the worship of the Old gods comes across as a personal experience that does not have a right or wrong. Rather it is that individual spiritual experience that is so encompassing in a world of grey. Nedâs meditations after executing a man seem to be odd in a world where death by violence is not anything peculiar. Perhaps every time he prays beside the weirdwood he is really thinking of all the death by his hand that he ever wrought. Another thought, could it be that he blames himself for Asha Daynes suicide? Surely he cannot be ignorant of the outcome.
To conclude, Nedâs honor is his armour. Without it he is but a man who has suffered a whole world of hurt. His promise to Lyanna, whatever it may be, and his honesty and ridiculously dutiful actions are all ways of atonement for a scarred person. I never see Eddard Stark as exceptionally just. Whilst I think Brandon would have favoured justice, Ned holds back his wrath. He epitomizes the virtue of temperance. Sure Ned doesnât condone the assassination of Daenarys. Nor does he do nothing when that meathead of a thug Gregor Clegane begins his pillaging. But both these acts are detestable to any average person. I find his dutiful behaviour and honourable actions to be that which Ned aspires to as a means of reconciliation. And there in lies the contention that I have with all these previous statements about him. Honor is not a quality you are born with. It develops over time. It is something that you strive towards. Eddard Starks final scene
in front of the mob is the key moment that reveals to us the true Ned. We had been lead to believe that he was a tool for being so honourable by nature. Yet when he confesses to treason, knowing well what it would cost him, Eddard shows that he has more love for his family and their happiness than this silly notion of honor that was only relevant when it applied to him. This is why I say that Ned cannot be called a fool for I have no doubt that Brandon Stark or Robert Baratheon would have lost their cool long ago and had their heads served up to mob. What Iâm curious to know is what Nedâs last thoughts were. Something akin to âDAMN YOU!!! DAMN YOU!!! OLD GODS CASTRATE THE LITTLE *expletive* â or âits finally overâ? I dunno. Any thoughts?
May 6th, 2008
Ranskey
So basically, you just proved my entire point. Ned Stark is exactly like Sansa. Bad shit continuously happens to them, yet they stay the same, noble and naive. Ned is all the things you say, I may not quite buy into all the psycho-babble, but overall I agree with your post. I like Ned tons, as I do Sansa, I simply detest Catelyn, and her lust for fame, when they bury un-cat finally they should put on her tombstone, here lies Catelyn Tully Stark, The Cersei Lannister of the North.
May 6th, 2008
Jovi
I really dislike Catelyn, but I don’t think she had the cunning or ambition to be called “Cersei of the North”. Aren’t her family words “Honor, Duty, Family”? I truly believe she convinced Ned to take the position as Hand for all those reasons. She truly believed their house and family would be the safer for it.
-Wormlips,
What I have often wondered about Littlefinger’s lie to Catelyn, and his meddling in the Vale of Arryn is this: How could he have predicted that Cat would have had a chance meeting with Tyrion Lannister on the road? It was obvious that he wanted to sow distrust between Cat and the Lannisters but the most he could have hoped for is for Cat to ask for a trial of the dwarf. And truly, Catelyn single-handedly drew a continent into war. What did she think was going to happen? That Tywin would sit idly by and watch her cut off his son’s head? Another reason I despise her.
May 6th, 2008
Enderlost
Jovi,
Ultimately, Ned is the Epitome of honor because he does nothing for himself. He serves others in almost every capacity. He is not a scheming, grasping character that most of the other major houses seem to be.
Even when he takes the Handship, he doesn’t take it for expansion of his power nor his house’s. He takes it at the behest of Catelyn. He tries to control the throne because he fears what the Lannisters and their incestuous offspring would do to the land (and rightly so).
As for Jaime, He is an honorable character. He did work for the service of others even as a 15 yr old kid. The reason I didn’t like him at the beginning was basically because he was an arrogant pissant who never had to work for anything in his life. Once he loses his hand and reevaluate himself he becomes infinitely more fascinating and likable. Although we see the process begin when he spends so much time around Brienne.
Oh, I was thinking that the “broken” or “reject” characters are the characters that we like the most whereas the ones who are traditionally the “heroes” are the ones who we hate
May 6th, 2008
Ranskey
IF Ned is so damn honorable, why does he let Catelyn convince him to send Jon to the wall. Id wipe my ass with honor like that. Sending a young boy to live his life in servitude, to never have a family or love anyone. If thats honorable you can have it. Furthermore, if Jon is or isn’t his son he owes it to the boy to tell him who his damn mother was. Ned is a good guy, but with honor like that, ill take dishonor with some sense of feeling.
May 6th, 2008
Enderlost
Ranskey,
What exactly is he supposed to do with him? Take him south? Let’s say he actually is Lyanna/Rhaegar’s Kid. Having him spend every day within sight of Robert, would be a HUGE risk. Don’t you think that Robert would eventually think “Hey he looks like Lyanna…. WAIT A SECOND”. Ned swore to protect the kid. He’s constantly at risk in King’s Landing.
Also, Let’s not forget the fact that Jon CHOSE the Night’s Watch. Granted he wasn’t truly informed, but it was still his choice. There weren’t many options for the kid no matter his parentage. At least, “A bastard could rise high in the Night’s Watch”. Add in the fact that Catelyn was forcing Ned to get rid of him somehow, which might have been the only thing she did that actually HELPED the realm, and we get a morally gray choice (pluses and minuses).
I ultimately don’t see it as a decision that isn’t honorable, but neither is it honorable.
May 6th, 2008
Anjou
Wow these are a lot of comments.
May 6th, 2008
Ranskey
There were lots of things he could have done with him. He could have forced him to stay at Winterfell, he has the ultimate decision as we see with Bran. He could tell Catelyn the damn truth, so maybe she won’t hate him so much. Either that its the son of some woman he loved, or Jon isn’t his son. He could have sent him to any of his lower houses in the north to stay. There were tons of things to do with him besides sending him to the most dangerous place in the known world… Go north son, be a brother to criiminals, fight the wildlings, maybe u will see some ghosts, should be fun. Hell he could have just gave him some money, and let him buy a house somewhere near winterfell, in one of the villages or something so he could be close to Robb, but away from Catelyn. There were tons of good decisions. Ned was too worried about impressing Robert to really worry about his bastard son/nephew.
May 6th, 2008
Jovi
So when’s the next podcast? It should be about warfare or technology in ASOIAF. Or sexual fantasies about certain characters…oh wait, that was already done. đ
May 6th, 2008
Wormlips
mmm good point ranskey. As I previously mentioned, I think his zealous obedience to Robert, a guy who he hasn’t seen in some time, is due to the fact that after the war he became like family. Its possible that Ned thought Jon would be in safe hands with the likes of the First Ranger Benjen Stark and Lord Mormont. I still get the feeling that everything was so rushed for Ned and Catelyn’s hissy fits over Jon is what truly drove the boy away. I recall from the second Catelyn chapter in a game of thrones that she had just finished getting jiggy with Ned and he was standing at the window looking out into the night. At this point she started blabbering on about how he cannot abandon his ‘close’ friend Robert to the vultures of King’s Landing, plus the marriage of Sansa to Joffrey and Tommen to Arya would make these (Tully)Stark children bonafide royalty. I cannot hate her for this because she is after all a mother and what mother doesn’t wish the best for her children. This is I GRRM’s books are lording over other fantasy books because of the element of character drama which captures so well. Nothing is just a bunch of meaningless facts *cough cough* (lord of the rings). To be honest though, I was initially surprised by Ned’s faithfulness to his friend Robert. Anyway this friendship of theirs, what was it? Cause it certainly didn’t appear to be returned by Robert until the moron was on in his death throes. I know many people love Robert but the truth is he was terrible person. Sure underneath the stubborn reckless man there was a good person but he was not meant to be king. This, I think, is an interesting point because cersei knew of jaimes tale in the iron throne and how he had honestly expected Ned to take the the seat of the Iron throne for himself. She even offered to seduce Ned and give him unofficial control, thought I get the feeling this was until Jaime could step in and duel him to death. But back to Robert. His war was initiated out of vengeance. The only reason Ned ever followed him was due the very fact that a) Lyanna was his sister & b) papa and bro were killed by the targaryens. I think any sane person would recognize the participation Ned in the war as influenced by justice and family honor. Something comes to mind right now. Catelyn and Lysa were married at the same time. WE know from Jon Arryn that he wed damaged goods because he needed the Tully military strength. I think this played a significant factor in Ned’s hooking up with Catelyn. As soon as he had wed and bed her he was out and marching for war. Remember how Robert says that after Lyanna’s death he wanted to marry no one else (thats ok he loved his whoring) and that Jon Arryn was the one who swayed him to marry Cersei and tie in with Lannister strength? I think this is the same thing that happened to Ned and Catelyn. Its a pity that we never go to meet the old man for he certainly seemed like an interesting and to be honest influential guy.
May 6th, 2008
Jovi
A Game of Thrones is still my favorite novel of the series because it had the most intrigue. Everyone was maneuvering for control in one fashion or another.
May 6th, 2008
Anonymous
Holy god, 82 comments already. I think you guys need to release the next episode đ People are getting bored.
May 6th, 2008
Anonymous
Hi guys.
Just wanted to say that I’ve never listened to a “podcast” before now, but found out about this from asoiaf forum and really enjoy it.
It’s good to hear a live(ish) talk about a series I’ve really got into, since I read AGOT a few years back.
My fav character is Jaime…..I loved to hate him, now I hate to love him.
May 10th, 2008
Spartan_MD
Love the podcast!
I know it’s been done and it’s very cliche, but I’d love to hear your groups take on:
Who’s the best warrior, army etc.
May 13th, 2008
Baron Korf
I just came across your podcast and am catching up. I’m that Catholic ‘theologian’ that would ream you, but it was so bad I ended up laughing more than anything. The Faith in ASoIaF is what TVTropes.org would call a “Crystal Dragon Jesus”. Basically it kinda looks like Christianity but has pagan beliefs.
Oct 4th, 2010
Reply to “Episode 5: The Creepy Ninja”