Apr 12, 2012
Episode 73: The Night Lands
Episode 73 for the week of April 8th, in which we continue our episode reviews by tackling the second episode in the second season of HBO’s Game of Thrones. Fan favorite Larry from Otaku Assemble joins us for a SPOILER FREE discussion of what we loved, hated, and were slightly aroused by in last Sunday’s episode.
Book readers and longtime APOIAF devotees, stay tuned to the aftershow for a spoilery debate! Warning: Mimi and Ashley’s collective nerd rage running on high after the 1:15 mark.
Note: We forgot to introduce our guest host during the aftershow, which was an unfortunate oversight. To clarify- his name is Jon, he’s 14 years old, and he likes girls with bad tattoos.
42 Comments, Comment or Ping
jesicka309
Hey! The link for this in download page links to episode 72. 🙂
Apr 12th, 2012
A Podcast of Ice and Fire
Fixed, sorry!
Apr 12th, 2012
mimi
so sorry about my horrible mic noises. it won’t be a problem on my end in future episodes, because i have a sweet new pro mic.
Apr 12th, 2012
Unique Dominque
I more and more think Kyle and Amin are the only reasonable people on this podcast.. Semi-kidding. I you Mimi but your nerd rage is really over the top and you got into the series way too late to be able to “nerd rage” that much, just saying.
Apr 13th, 2012
Unique Dominque
Love you Mimi*
Apr 13th, 2012
mimi
haha, is there a time limit threshold to the nerd rage membership club? what’s the requirement- six years? ten? lemme know so i can start stacking up tables to flip while i’m counting down!
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Apr 13th, 2012
Unique Dominque
I was pretty much kidding, I mean it IS over the top but it’s damn funny to me. Is that you ripping off your arm and throwing it at a table?!
Apr 13th, 2012
mimi
haha, nooo! it’s the motion of the table flipping.
here’s you putting it back though: ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Apr 13th, 2012
Unique Dominque
Wow, we look alike..
Apr 13th, 2012
Redwoody
HOTPIE!
Apr 13th, 2012
Belwas
Loved the episode, especially with Larry on.
I do notice however with Mimi and Ashley that sometimes your nerdrage blinds you. You say that we should not see the other, perhaps only hear them. You do realise that you actually see like ½ a second of the eyes and then like the lower third of it for the same amount of time? Pretty much less than a second total, where as the sound they make was playing throughout the entire scene? So – the scene is pretty much what you are asking for?
Same with Melisandre pursuading Stannis. While it is true that the “I’ll give you a son” line gets him, she does start out doing exactly as you suggested they should handle it. She tells him that she has seen how he becomes a king, and that it requires that he gives himself completely to Rhollor – aka bang her which is fairly obvious since it is the moment when she disrobes.
Just pointing out that they actually in many cases handle the scenes exactly as you would prefer them but you fail to notice that because one frame or one line engages your nerd rage 🙂
Apr 13th, 2012
Unique Dominque
Ha, agreed Bru.
Apr 13th, 2012
Death_Sheep
I think Melissandre was laying on Dorne?
Apr 13th, 2012
Jeremy
Welcome back, Larry!
Another great episode, all!
Apr 13th, 2012
Rweoin
Gr8 episode, Larry is awesome. much love to apoiaf.
Apr 13th, 2012
LORD YELLOW SNOW
IT STOPS AT 27 MINUTES, WHATS WRONG?
Apr 13th, 2012
earl
I didn’t think I’d like this episode as much because I hate when people have to tip-toe around spoilers but it was awesome and Larry has some great insights, especially for someone who hasn’t read the books.
Apr 13th, 2012
Christina
I was expecting full on nerd rage throughout this episode, but it’s actually nicely contained in the last 30 minutes, with Kyle and Amin speaking up, but everyone agreeing that the Ros/Littlefinger scene sucked. I thought your nerd rage was nicely defended and that you were willing to admit that some of it is little stuff, so all in all, not the hatefest I was expecting. If you guys are going to nerdrage, I think this was a great way to do it. And also the first part with Larry was awesome. Good job guys!
Apr 13th, 2012
Lord Littlefinger
I started of watching the HBO series, then read all the books. Now watching the series has basically become unbearable.
Obviously they’ve ruined Littlefinger. Also, I took offense to Ashley calling him a sociopath, even though its term without any real meaning. Basically, I assume you just mean he’s not nice.
Apr 13th, 2012
Ash
i meant it for the sense that he has no empathy for his actions. he lacks a moral compass. he’s not cruel for cruelties’ sake, he just doesn’t care if people get hurt while he’s achieving his goal.
Apr 13th, 2012
Redwoody
I’m not having a lot of issues with the minute changes that are being made, but *this*… the ruining of Littlefinger, is definitely getting to me. Do you think it’s already unsalvageable?
Apr 13th, 2012
CasualBran
I think this is a slight overreaction. To be fair, the book Littlefinger is more enigmatic because although it’s implied he never makes mistakes or rattles feathers he is distrusted and disliked. He’s also almost entirely off-screen until book four in which his plot has already been hatched and is reaching fruition. How can you claim to understand how he acts or what he does to make him get to the end goal? If he does not get to the end goal he does in the books, I’ll be there, raging in the air, but until then I’m willing to see the journey as it plays out.
Apr 17th, 2012
KR
I just finished listening to the podcast and I love the later part of it. The more nerd-rage, the better the podcast as far as I’m concerned. Please Mimi and Ashley never filter yourselves because some people complain.
Apr 13th, 2012
Lex
Haven’t gotten to the after-show rage yet, but just gotta say Larry is in top form on this. Love his rants! Also, I find it interesting how close his thoughts mirror those of a first-time reader; a sign that the show is working, IMO.
Apr 13th, 2012
Lex
Hmm.. well, kudos to Mimi and Ashley for sincerely trying to explain why they hated the episode… but I gotta say, I agreed with Kyle and Amin on most of those points.
Anyways, not as bad as I was expecting! But I am really wondering how you guys are going to react as the show (inevitably) strays farther from the book. I expect Episode 2 will look relatively true-to-the-books by comparison, when we reach the end of the season…
Apr 13th, 2012
jesicka309
Nearly finished the episode now, but I have some advice for our hosts – watch the episode again. Just sit down, and quietly watch it, no talking, no nerd rage, and just see how much more you enjoy it. This episode improves upon a second viewing, and you don’t mind half the stuff you did before.
That being said, the Littlefinger scene still sucks. 🙂
Apr 13th, 2012
chavalah
Larry provides such an interesting avenue into the group of non-book readers that the producers must be most thrilled with–those who don’t know the story beforehand but who are grappling on a pretty deep level with the series as it unfolds. I certainly know of other non-book watchers who love the show, yet don’t give it nearly the amount of thought that Larry does, and ergo don’t understand as much about what’s going down.
That being said, I found his reaction to Stannis pretty interesting. I’m a Robb/House Stark fangirl myself, and nothing would thrill me more than Robb and the Baratheon brothers teaming up. However, from my understanding from reading the books, Stannis is a guy who just won’t bend, and in his worldview Robb is stealing half of his kingdom. It doesn’t matter that Robb’s bannermen raised him up to king; he still took the offer is bears responsibility for his own actions. It’s hard to look at the Stannis scenes without my own book knowledge, but it does seem like they’re speeding things along pretty quickly and not giving non-bookies a decent look into his character. For example, I agree with Carice van Houten that there were good hints in the books that Mel and Stannis were getting it on, but how much does the show audience really understand about how rare it was for Stannis to break a vow?
…and a small little complaint; “women are always responsible for mens’ downfalls;” really? Because it’s not like Stannis feels entitled to the throne on his own (speaking of issues of entitlement on this show–remember that we’re following medieval nobles around, so EVERYONE feels entitled.) Or that the men on this show take it upon themselves to rape and plunder and pillage for their own pride and ambition. Would be nice to tone down the female-dismissive opinions just a little bit.
And speaking of being dismissive of females…Larry, Mimi, Sansa haters…here’s my response to why I liked a “weak female protagonist,” even in book one. To steal from Kit Harrington’s DVD commentary, she wasn’t “weak,” she was “misguided,” and that has a lot to do with upbringing. I’d go as far as to agree with many fans that Sansa is very much Ned’s daughter–she adheres to traditional gender roles, she puts her trust in the wrong people, and she pays a price for it. Certainly by this point in the story she’s largely a victim of the Lannisters, and although I know “passive” characters turn some people off, she doesn’t need to be “redeemed.” Even in the first season/book, she did some incredible things that are too often overlooked, like taking it upon herself to plead for Ned’s life in front of the court, or standing up to Joffrey on the drawbridge.
I love Arya as well, but as a female fan, I’m actually more wary of her character–the tomboy who wants to be a boy/hates being a girl–how been there/done that is this trope in fantasy? Fortunately, GRRM builds up her character to be more than two-dimensional in the books, and Maisie is just awesome. It’s unfortunate, I think, (though not Sophie’s fault,) that aspects of Sansa’s character from the book were downplayed or ignored; she was flattened into a more sullen, bitchy character. And so far they seem to be doing something similar with Catelyn this season…speaking of nerdrage. Though I’m not sure I could keep up with all of you and throwing tables. 😛 Really appreciated your input, though, and put me down for disliking the brothel scenes, Ros, and show Petyr’s insistence on twirling his evil mustache.
Apr 13th, 2012
Christina
Well, if we’re going to get technical, hooking up with Melsandre actually does help Stannis beat his greatest opponent directly (Renly) and maybe indirectly (Leeches in the fire = cause or simply prediction of Robb, Balon, and Joffrey?), so females aren’t always bringing the menfolk to destruction 😉 But Larry doesn’t know that yet.
However one has to admit that it certainly caused the downfall for Robb in a very terrible, awful way.
Not to fuel the Sansa debate, of which there are many on the forums, but although they may have “flattened” Sansa in the show in your words, they did take out some of the biggest issues people in the fandom have with her, ie,
1) the scene where Arya and Joffrey are before the king – In the book, Ned specifically says he had spoken to Sansa the night before and she had told him the truth of the events, but when brought before the King and Queen she claims she doesn’t remember. It is implied that Ned expected her to tell the truth since he’s the one that sent for her. In the show Cersei sends for her, implying that she somehow separated Sansa from her dad and manipulated her in some way to claim not to remember, absolving her of a lot of the blame that book reader may feel.
2) In the show, Sansa never goes to the queen to tell her Ned’s plans for leaving King’s Landing, which I think seals the Sansa hate for many book readers. Hence, for me, Sansa is not nearly as bad in the show as she is in the books.
This is the same reason why show Catelyn is lot more sympathetic than book Catelyn – no “It should have been you!” line to Jon Snow, no “you must go to King’s Landing, Ned”, no “I cannot return to Bran and Rickon, I have to see my father first.”
For me, I like Sansa and Catelyn a hell of lot more on the show because of these reasons. But then, I hate show Cersei more for the same reasons, ie, trying to make her more sympathetic and taking away a lot of her bitchiest moves from the books. I want to hate her more on the show, but she continues to show a kind of slow burning, quiet fury that doesn’t make hating her nearly as fun.
Apr 14th, 2012
Anonymous
I’m assuming you’re talking about the leeches scene, to be deft with spoilers hopefully, but even so, why is that more Melissandre’s fault than Stannis’s fault? He’s the one who threw them on the pyre. I don’t like Mel–she’s definitely one of my lest favorite characters–but the whole “women are to blame for mens’ downfall” argument is a shallow ploy for men who don’t want to take responsibility for their own actions.
Speaking of which, I don’t deny that Catelyn and Sansa have flaws/make mistakes, but I rarely hear Ned, Robb and Jon, say, being called “stupid fucking whores” who need to be “redeemed” for also being human. Almost all the characters–certainly all POVs– are complicated, yet some have been unfairly vilified for years. This, to me, is the crux of the “Sansa/Cat” argument–and also what GRRM dislikes about said arguments, I might add, according to Elio’s commentary on westeros.org.
As a Cat and Sansa fan I come to the show from a different angle than you–I don’t think they needed to be made more sympathetic because I already find them to be sympathetic. (Personally, given Ned’s chapter with Arya and Needle, I felt like he had some understanding for Sansa’s situation on the road, or at least some forgiveness.) Sansa’s optimism, kindness (because in the book, she was really only bratty to Arya, who was in turn bratty with her,) and especially her love of stories and taught expectations to be a wife and mother, were huge parts of her character. And Catelyn, in book two, displays a deft political acumen that Robb lacks, and she chooses to stay with him rather than do the “sympathetic” thing of returning to her younger sons because Robb is the future of the house and could benefit most from her counsel (many of his mistakes came from ignoring it, in fact.)
I agree with you on Cersei. I don’t hate her as a character (I don’t really like her, either,) but it’s a shame that they took away her fire in order to make her seem more compassionate.
Apr 14th, 2012
chavalah
Woops, forgot to put my name in; didn’t mean to be anonymous. 😛
Apr 14th, 2012
Jeremy
I don’t want to put words into Larry’s mouth, but if I had to guess, I’d say that he meant that a man’s downfall usually *involves* a woman. I don’t think he actually *blames* the woman exclusively (at least I hope not). Women can tempt, cajole, argue, pout all they want; men can still say no (we just don’t, usually). Just because a woman is charming doesn’t absolve a man for giving in to the charm. To paraphrase Jaime. “The things we do for love.” 🙂
Apr 14th, 2012
GuyInkognito
Non-prude european here: The sexposition scenes are annoying and a terrible waste of time if you only have 10 hours per season to tell such a complex story.
Apr 14th, 2012
Nathan
Something that I still don’t get is Jon sharpening his sword. Am I wrong? I thought you didn’t need to keep on sharpening Valyrian steel. What does Jon have that could sharpen Valyrian steel anyway? I wanted to shout, “Stop ruining your sword!” I could be wrong though.
Apr 15th, 2012
nemui
That’s probably one of the many ways Valyrian steel benefits from poetic licence.
No matter what the bards say, it’s just good steel, people! Longclaw is not a +3 vorpal sword, and if it’s made of metal – you do have to sharpen it.
That being said, Jon’s probably just keeping himself busy. And impressing the crasterladies, of course.
Apr 15th, 2012
jesicka309
“Sharpening his sword” is totally a euphemism for something else 😉
I’m surprised we haven’t had Gendry “polishing his helm” on screen yet.
Apr 16th, 2012
mimi
i’d polish his helm.
Apr 16th, 2012
Kadayi
Enjoyed the podcast. However I think some of you need to reconcile yourself to the fact that even with the best will in the world the shows producers don’t have the necessary budget, episodes or production time to follow the books to the letter in terms of the characters, scope or nuance. Concessions are an unfortunate reality in order to deliver a series that non-readers can enjoy. If you’re going to jump to grave offense at every deviation then tbh, you might as well quit now.
Apr 16th, 2012
Oduya
I agree 100% Kadayl. If you love the books then thats fine, you’ll always have the books. You can’t expect the hundreds of people involved in the making this program take your indivudual interpretation of the material and copy it perfectly on screen however, that is just plain ridiculous and at times extremely childish. The “nerd rage” is a sense entitlement and self proclaimed ownership of the books and the direction of the franchise, its fine to be disappointed and even to criticize, but the amount of complaining on this show, especially by Mimi, is really getting to me and I’m going to stop listening if it continues (I just started listening to the season 2 recaps, have not heard the other episodes).
This is the best and only way the books could be brought to the visual medium, criticize and discuss it please, but the pointless nerd rage is bordering on childish at this point.
Apr 16th, 2012
Krakenpuffcerial
Have you guys heard of Boars Gore and Swords? In the category of ASOIAF related podcasts they’re right below you in awesomeness.
Apr 17th, 2012
Andres
PLEASE no more annoying black guy. Too much flava and an idiot. Also he knows nothing, John Snow.
Apr 19th, 2012
saltyhorseface
Just started listening… I have been working my way backwards through the pod casts. I just listened to Larry and his ranting. I just want to say that Larry was really great! He had complex, smart, and thought out rants. He stuck to topic. (I personally hate when podcasts just review something by saying “It was good… yah, I liked it, I liked that guy that did that thing…” )
Keep up the good work!
Sep 8th, 2012
saltyhorseface
re watching episode 2 now…
Ros
I noticed this when I first watched this episode. It looks like Ros is in charge of the Little Fingers place of business during the daytime? She is instructing women and speaking to the guards/they are speaking to her. In only a year, Ros has gone from country bumpkin to working in one of the more high class businesses in the capital city? Little Finger must have a looooot of respect for her? Oh wait, no… he threatens her later in the episode…. Does not seem consistent!
I picture Sam much less annoying in the books than he is in the show.
Greyjoy’s hall is awesome. I want that fireplace.
Theon’s sister is different looking… She has circles under her eyes and the actress has an unusual way about moving and talking….it will be interesting to see how her character develops…
Cerci is crazy but she loves her kids… actually anyone’s kids… Great acting!
Were they eating on the table that is shaped like the major landmass? Complete with rivers and mountians? Weird…
Sep 8th, 2012
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