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Episode 173: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Episode 173 for the week of May 17th, in which we review the sixth episode in the fifth season of HBO’s Game of Thrones.

Notes: Like almost all episodes of APOIAF, this episode has spoilers for all published books in George RR Martin’s ASOIAF series.  The audio quality for this episode was lowered by the onsite recording.

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41 Comments, Comment or Ping

  1. Rhys

    Probably the worst episode I’ve ever listened to. 1/3 was a feminist rant. For fuck’s sake, I had enough of that on Reddit. I thought this was the place to listen to a meaningful discussion about Game of Thrones.

    I think this might be my last listen.

    Reply

    Ivana

    Oh right, you don’t watch Game of Thrones to think about the injustice of the bad treatment of women. You watch it to watch the mistreatment of women.

    Makes sense.

    Reply

    Rhys

    Theon had his cock cut off. HIS COCK CUT OFF. See all those gay guys get slaughtered a few episodes back too? Feminists are ridiculous at times.

    Reply

    Ivana

    And Ned Stark got HIS HEAD CUT OFF. See all those people slaughtered at the Red Wedding? How dare you complain about Theon’s dick now?

    Yes, that was me imitating your ridiculous arguments.

    Reply

    Rhys

    What the hell!? I was implying that Theon – a male – having his dick cut off is worse than Sansa – a female – getting raped. I said this after you said I enjoy watching GoT to “watch the mistreatment of women”. You then proceed to bring up Ned’s execution (where a MAN dies) and the Red Wedding (where TWO WOMEN and HUNDREDS OF MEN die). Thank you, thank you very much, for proving my point for me. :)

    Reply

    Ivana

    And I have a little something for you – a poster on Tower of the Hand, raeyne, wrote a couple of posts where they imagined what the show would be like to make the depiction of sexual violence against women on the same level as castration of men:

    “Let’s play a game. Instead of threatened for actual rape in the show, let’s substitute male genital mutilation. Here we go;

    Season 1- dothraki weddings sure are violent, women occasionally overpower and castrate men right on the dance floor, to the delight of the khal.

    Season 2- Jeffrey is attacked by a mob in the streets of kl, a group of brutish men haul him crying and screaming to a back alley where they rip his clothes and are JUSY ABOUT TO CUT HIS PENIS OFF WITH A BLUNT KNIFE but luckily the hound saves him.

    Stannis is attacking kl. Tyrion is rallying the troops. “Those are brave men at our babes. LETS GO CUT THEIR DICKS OFF!” meanwhile in the red keep, a drunken cersei counsels sansa “if Stannis wins, well probably be ok. But then men out there are in for a bit of genital mutilation!”

    Season 3- Jamie and brienne are captured by Locke. Brienne warns Jamie that his penis is likely to be completely severed from his body, but he shouldn’t fight it and just lie back and think of cersei.

    Season 4- mutineers at crasters keep have captured bran and co. Burn Gorman whispers in jojens ear. “Me dad had a little prick just like yours. I’ll be taking it as a keepsake, right in front of,your friend and sister.” a cry goes up. “Cut their members off till they’re dead!”
    I can go on… Or is this starting to get ridiculous?

    Here are a few more:

    Season 1. Dany rescues one of the lamb men, Mizzi Maz Dude, only to be betrayed. MMD exclaimes “Saved me? My wiener had already been chopped up into a half a dozen pieces by the time you ‘saved me, Khaleesi.’”

    Season 2. Tyrion and Bronn are playing a drinking game. Tyrion lets Bronn in on a secret. “I had another best friend once. I didn’t even have to pay for him, he just liked me for who I was But he was lowborn. When my father found out, he made each of is men chop a tiny piece of his penis off, until there was nothing left but scrot. Then, I had to go last. My dad made me chop my best friends balls off! We weren’t friends anymore after that.”

    Season 3 (?). Tyrion and Sansa have just been married. Joffrey threatens Tyrion “Uncle, just because you’re wed now, it doesn’t mean your dick is safe. What if I snuck into your bed chamber tonight and chopped it off before you could consummate your marriage? It’s the kings right.”

    And hey, to be fair, for every instance of male sexual violence, we can exchange that for female sexual violent. For example:

    Season 3-4 Dany acquires a large army of Unsullied. The slaver tells her “All of our fighters come fully equipped with genitalia. In fact, as part of their initiation, they have to rape one random woman!” The camera pans to a large crowd of stoic looking women. Dany selects one the these women, about her own age, as a gift to herself from the slaver.

    Later, we are treated to an in depth side story about this girl, Missandei. She falls in love with one of the Unsullied (suprisingly, not her rapist!) Gray Worm, who loves her back. However, because of the emotional scars of rape, it is very difficult for her to be intimate with a man, physically and emotionally. We see multiple instances of Missandei trying to open up to Gray Worm, and she even tries to initiate a physical relationship, but each time the horrors of her past come back to haunt her. Gray Worm deals with the hardship of helping Missandei emotionally, while knowing that a physical relationship is impossible.

    ETA: Don’t forget to read these with the perspective that 1 in 6 men in real life will have their penises threatened with or actually amputated in their lifetimes.”

    Reply

    Rhys

    It’s based on Medieval Britain, where women did get raped. :) Sorry, your wall of social justice text is now null and void.

    Reply

    Ivana

    O rly? Women got raped in medieval Britain? Who would think! And now they don’t, right?

    And please, you aren’t seriously trying to use REALISM to defend the “Sansa marries Ramsay” plotline? ROTFLMAO

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    @Rhys You’re a sexist – how can you on the one hand acknowledge that rape’s way more prevalent, but at the same time want people to feel more bad, when a man gets hurt – NO I’m angry, I feel bad for every victim, and because women are the victims far more often than men are, I get more angry at their tormenters.

    I think seeing dramas like this, having discussions like this, should make us reflect on the fights women had to fight to get to the point we’re right now, how long it took, for what limited time women have the rights, they have know – it should make us feel horrible. We can take this feeling reflecting on the question of “are they equal now?”, “do they really have the same rights?” – what has society, what do we have to do, to throw that inequality away once and for all. It’s a similar effect that police brutality videos have – of course it makes us feel horrible, that’s apparently what’s necessary for us to wake up.

    Sansa IS a strong character, no matter what, we see things through her eyes, hear her thoughts, have to go through everything she goes through, that is one of the most important points in the Amanda Marcotte article – NO NO NO it does not weaken her character, if she gets raped – that’s a threat that is always be there – there are no super heroes in the story that can make the inner workings of this society stop – there just aren’t, there never have been…

    Reply

    Rhys

    Ha, I’m not sexist – far from it. I feel bad when I see that happen to all the characters, but when it happens to women people (feminists) are up in arms, but when it happens to guys it’s standard practice. Just read this article. George says it best: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/03/george-rr-martin-thrones-violence-women

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    I defended the scene itself on that ground, but where does he talk in any way about different outrage? He doedn’t even mention violence about men. Of course he’s NOT writing about patriarchy to cheer for it – he wants to critisize it. It’s not the same – of course people feel more for women than for men, because it’s so common… theon, red wedding etc frankly feels negligible in comparison – not for the plot, but the violence itself…

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    It’s not about feminism vs sexism – it’s an argument between conservatives (in this particular issue) and liberals. Feminists came out openly in defence of the scene itself as in critque of it – all of us should be very careful not to paint personal preferences and/or analytical thoughts about a fantasy series and fictional characters as broader societal/cultural/political issues… Again – we’re neither talking about a real-life 21st century rape ccase NOR genital mutilation… (otherwise we’d also talk about beheading [OMG ISIS], flaying alive, burning alive etc etc etc

    Reply

  2. Floor Acita

    I would appreciate both sides of the argument to paint it as a matter of feminism vs sexism – we’re still talking about fictional characters in a TV show/book series and are discussing the storytelling aspects – not a real life, 21st century rape case…

    Why I don’t agree with the main criticism of this scene is the fact, that everyone seems to believe that the only reason for a scene is character development. That’s just wrong! If you write a complex story like this, decisions you make for characters, locations have consequences later on, that you have to deal with. The moment Sansa was placed in Winterfell, for the reason she’s there – giving the Boltons legitimacy, hence marrying Ramsay – the rape was inevitable – anything else would’ve been unbelievable fantasy – life’s not a song. So if weeks ago, people had said “I don’t like this decision, because of the consequences/complications”, I’d understand it (I also prefer the book version of events) – when in the next couple of weeks we see a Sansa that is utterly unaffected by the rape, we can also criticize that as bad writing/unrealistic and yes, also on the back(s) of /a wom(a/e)n. But even then, the rape (scene, of course) would still be justified – the problems would lie in the further writing. That people had this kind of outrage after the particular scene (even calling previous scenes of the wedding good/strong) hints at the irrationality of this outrage – again, of course if she marries Ramsay she gets raped – everyone had to know that at least from the moment they went through with the ceremony – this has nothing to do with the Jeyne Poole story line, or Sansa’s development, or Reek’s, but merely the fact that the patriarchy in Westeros demands consummation of marriage and Ramsay’s character. I think they have to deal with the consequences of the rape, going forward with the development they laid out for Sansa, Reek and the Boltons. The scene was neither placed there -to- develop any of the characters -nor- for exploitive reasons, but as a necessity of their outlining.

    You could argue that Jeyne Poole in the books is only there to develop Theon’s storyline – Tysha get’s raped multiple times to develop Tywin & Tyrion, Pia in Harrenhal etc. there are so many characters that share that fate – exploitive? or realistic world-view? If it’s the latter, we just have to discuss how realistic the scene in the show was – if it’s the first, I wonder why people care more about Sansa, than any of the other characters I mentioned – but whatever it is, it doesn’t seem like feminist to me, but rather pretty patriarchal: high-born victims matter (Sansa, Cersei) – small folk, low-born, peasants, bastards (Craster’s wifes, Pia, Tysha, Jeyne etc.) – not so much…

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    “I would appreciate both sides of the argument to paint it as a matter of feminism vs sexism” how 3 letters can change/revert the whole meaning… of course it was supposed to say:
    “I would appreciate [...] NOT to paint it [...]“

    Reply

  3. anne

    THIS is a meaningful discussion about Game of Thrones, you have to be analytic in order to have a discussion, especially when dealing with sensitive subjects as sexual abuse and violence.
    It’s not only that they chose to have Ramsey rape Sansa, it’s the fact that we already know that he is a monster, this say nothing new to the audience, that this change crushes the “growth and empowerment” of Sansa, they put a character that already have a abusive relationship in her past in a new, they maker a victim again and also erase the of teachings of Littlefinger and they make her look naive and stupid.
    Like it or not they run a popular tv show and they have a responsibility to deal with this sensitive subjects with respect, intelligence and sensibility (this not means that they have to shelter us of this subjects, but that the approach that they took is not a wise one).

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    again, my question is, if there was an alternative to Sansa getting raped AFTER they made the decision to place her in Winterfell? How could that have played out, without being utterly unrealistic?

    I just hate the hypothesis that they place such a scene -solely- to shock people, or because they think they have to do this to Sansa – I find that unconvincing, especially because it’s such a realistic chain of events. And we all can’t read minds… I don’t think, they have to go all the other way and change storylines, solely to avoid emotionally challenging scenes – rape scenes can’t be gratuitous in a world in which rape is so common – giving how many rapes happen in Westeros, and sadly enough in real-life too, rape on GoT and TV shows in general is rather underrepresented. Look at the amount of murder, mutilation, and other forms of brutal violence in the show and books – is this really more realistic than the depiction of rape and rape culture? About genital mutilation we have a good laugh (cock merchant), again rape of minor characters we see all the time without flipping out – if Sansa gets raped, than that IS her story – I don’t get the “we already knew” arguments – I hope a real life victim of anything could be saying “well, it happened once, so I must be safe now”. Again, I think the criticism of this particular scene is not really 100% rational & and I don’t like the underlying implication (from a lot of critics of this scene), that everyone who defends the scene as scene is a rape apologist…

    Reply

    Ivana

    “again, my question is, if there was an alternative to Sansa getting raped AFTER they made the decision to place her in Winterfell? How could that have played out, without being utterly unrealistic?”

    Why are you asking this? This is a completely wrong question and really not the point. You make it seem as if someone made them write the storyline of Sansa marrying Ramsay and being left unprotected in Winterfell, and then they had no choice. THEY are the ones that DECIDED to write a storyline where Sansa marries Ramsay, which makes ZERO SENSE and is full of plot holes on every level, and which required several characters to act completely OOC and make idiotic decisions (Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, Cersei, and above all, Sansa). Why? Because they wanted Sansa to be raped by Ramsay. That’s why they wrote this convoluted, ridiculous storyline and completely destroyed Sansa’s actual arc (both her book arc and the arc they seemed to be setting up in season 4 with the hamfisted way they made a point how she was now “empowered” and a “player”… what happened to that?) and regressed/destroyed her characterization and development.

    Reply

    Anonymous

    That’s why I wrote, “I also prefer the book version of events” – I think placing Sansa in Winterfell was a mistake, but I don’t think the reason was the rape – they didn’t wanna bring Harry the Heir in and had to overall condense 2 1000 pages books to 10 episodes of tv – one decision let to another (I do think it’s a Meereenese knot kind of thing)… Unfortunate, but a) they killed Marillion season 1, he’d attempted to rape Sansa, and we do not know how Harry will actually treat her, and how they address the rape and what consequences it’ll have on her story arc, we also don’t know yet, so – I’m not convinced…

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    of course it was me, sorry

    Reply

    Ivana

    How does a storyline where Sansa marries Ramsay and is raped and abused “condense” the story? That’s completely rewriting the story and Sansa’s character arc.

    And why would they need to marry her to Ramsay to get her in Winterfell? Why didn’t she go north to rally the northern Lords, ally with Stannis and help him rally the north against the Boltons?

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    on her own? I do think that they wanted Sansa to be in the North, because that’s what will eventually happen – remember that we don’t know the conclusion of her storyline in the books as well. How can she just go up in the north and rally Lords? Roose Bolton is Warden of the North and has, at least some, control over it. Sansa is the heir to Winterfell, it makes perfect sense, from their perspective, to marry her to Ramsay to give them legitimacy – that is precisely what they were trying with the “Arya” scam, and why she was forced to marry Tyrion.

    I think we view two things differently:
    a) It’s not their portrayal – Sansa IS a pawn – patriarchy limits the things women can do dramatically. It’s in no way making her weak as a character – no matter how hard you try, no matter what you do – violence, esp sexual violence is a threat that’s always there for every woman in the series. That’s the brutal truth – it was the intention of Martin to write a realistic war story, not one in which we ignore the real issues, glorify heros and concentrate on “villains”, when thousands get humiliated, oppressed, beaten, raped, mutilated etc (that was the point in Alyssa Rosenberg’s essay, her article and Amanda Marcotte’s article as well) You could argue for more male tragedy – if you think that’s the message they should drive home, but men and women are surely not in the same position there, right?
    b) you think your opinion is the only one – it seems logical, so it must be THE truth. You and others are constantly accusing them of re-writing story lines to have rape scenes, when ironically it is you that wants to re-write story lines to avoid rape. “restrain to limit the impact” – NO you develop characters, place them somewhere, begin to tell a story and than it develops from there – little changes have huge affects and influence each other – sometimes how you planed it – sometimes, because you want something, something different is inevitable that you have to find a way to deal with – again, that was precisely what Martin described – and it took him 4-5years to cut through the knot – they don’t have that time – you can say that’s lazy, but again Sansa is vulnerable as a woman, let alone the only surviving Stark – WHEREVER she goes, with WHOMEVER she ends up with – that’s the sad reality…

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    I just have to make one thing 100% clear – when I wrote “on her own?” in no way I meant, that someone has to come to her rescue, or that she needs the help of Brienne, Theon, Littlefinger or any male charcter etc. – NO, what I hope (and trust [and that's what this whole debate is about, I think] them and Martin to do) is that wherever she ends up with, with whomever, doing whatever etc. it will be ultimately her doing, her choice, her deeds. What I meant was, that she now is literally on her own, no one that she could play to get what she wants, not in the environment she is in – a rape is not to blame on too little agency of the victim, of course. I think what we saw last season and the beginning of this one, is Sansa coming to her own, the first step, in the sense of realising who she is, in where she is and how to, ultimately, deal with it – not relying on anyone to rescue her, not to dream, but to analyze and draw the right conclusions, and how to act. But from there, the second step is to actually starting to do something, and that always contains set-backs (“every ambitious move is a gamble”) – now a rape is a serious one, one that could destroy her (“many who attempt to claim it fail” [the ladder]), not necessary, but sadly realistic – she took the chance with the marriage, because she knows that she is in a better position in Winterfell, in the North – that’s where she’ll ultimately end up anyway – the difference are the Vale troops. Doesn’t mean she knew about Ramsay, or that she knew about the rape, or she choose the rape or any of that, but just that she made that choice to go there and take whatever risk will wait for her there, amongst the people that killed her family, which is a choice of a strong character btw.

    Reply

    Ivana

    Yes, making stupid decisions, being easily manipulated by LF who’s not even making a good argument by any stretch of the imagination, forgetting about all the political capital she has, and acting like she hasn’t learned anything from her experiences in King’s Landing. make show!Sansa a weak character.

    She is also a weaker character not just than book!Sansa, but also than book!Jeyne Poole. Jeyne never made such a stupid decision as to throw away safety and any degree of power and marry Ramsay. Jeyne never had any choice or allies or political leverage – but she was smarter and more proactive than show!Sansa; she learned what Ramsay was like and took that information seriously, and asked Theon to help her escape *before* the wedding. Which means that Book!Jeyne also has better intelligence (in both senses of the word) than Show!Littlefinger.

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    and btw Sansa IS a strong character, no matter what, we see things through her eyes, hear her thoughts, have to go through everything she goes through, that is one of the most important points in the Amanda Marcotte article – NO NO NO it does not weaken her character, if she gets raped – that’s a threat that is always be there – there are no super heroes in the story that can make the inner workings of this society stop – there just aren’t, there never have been…

    Reply

    Ivana

    Sansa is a strong character in the books. Sansa on the show is just a plot device with no constant characterization, that writers move around and use for torture porn and shock value.

    Reply

    lawrencium

    Well Ramsey being a monster is why it played out like that. If he reacted like a decent human being then that would have been a huge change in his character, this man who hunts women for sport does not balk at raping his wife. It’s precisely because he’s a monster that it had to play out like that. I don’t agree with putting Sansa in Winterfell under the control of the Boltons but that’s a separate issue. Once she’s there, there was no way for this to play out differently.

    As for the rape making her look naive and stupid I disagree completely. It takes strength to agree to that marriage knowing full well what it meant for her later on. She knew exactly what she was doing.

    I mean, how would you suggest they approach it differently besides not having her in Winterfell at all? Theon is clearly not going to save her yet, her friends in the North saw her consenting to the marriage (which in that patriarchal society is consenting to the rape), she clearly can’t save herself in this situation since Ramsey is stronger than her. Once she was betrothed this scene was inevitable, I don’t see why people are acting so shocked.

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    I agree with most of what you said – I don’t think she knew, what she got herself into. I see it more like a risk you take, that something like that could be happening, yet she couldn’t possibly know the full extend of what that means. We 100% saw a rape, whether Westerosi acknowledge that or not – let’s just get that out there.

    I also think, friends in the North would still help her and call Ramsay a monster, but there was just not enough time between her arrival and the wedding to play the game to such a point.

    And that is/was my point all along, that -as you said- the rape was a logical consequence of putting Sansa in Winterfell – why would the Boltons wait any longer to go through with the wedding?

    No, the rape was inevitable, the question is just – what happens now? How does she deal with it, what consequences does that have for other characters as well. That’s the burden they now have, but frankly till the end of the series – we don’t know.

    One last thing, yes I prefer the book plot(s), and putting Sansa in Winterfell comes with that burden, but a) it also opens alot of possibilities, and b) we all seem to have forgotten the Meereenese knot, and what it was about – they want to condense 2 major books into 10 episodes of TV and DON’T have 4-5 years time to think about it – that has consequences, for the quality of the plots and, unfortunately, for Sansa as well… As a Sansa supporter myself from book/season 1 (sic!), of course I was also hurt, disgusted, felt so so bad for her, but I direct that hate towards Ramsay, as others have done with Joffrey, the Mountain etc. oh I hate this guy, you better believe it…

    Reply

    Ivana

    “As for the rape making her look naive and stupid I disagree completely. It takes strength to agree to that marriage knowing full well what it meant for her later on. She knew exactly what she was doing.”

    Except for the fact that she has no clue what she is doing?

    Please tell me, what exactly is she doing? What is her plan? Did she ever have any?

    It’s not the rape that makes her look stupid, it’s the fact she agreed to marry Ramsay. That made her look:
    1) incredibly stupid, 2) insane, and/or 3) a completely implausible character who does not act like a real human being but as a product of bad writing.

    Reply

  4. GabeousMaximus

    At first I thought the rape scene unnecessary. I stand corrected. At no point did the prospect of a Ramsay/Sansa marriage look like a precursor to a love story. The two weren’t going to suddenly warm up to each other. Ramsay wasn’t going to miss a chance at a legitimate heir. Nor was he likely to start practicing consensual sex. He’s a horrible person. We all knew that. Thus, Sansa would either escape the Boltons or quickly become the victim of rape.
    But the widespread shock at the rape scene suggests that not everyone picked up on the gravity of the Ramsay/Sansa wedding. Many have called the scene unnecessary. Ironically, it is for their sake that the show-writers made the right decision in spelling it out.

    Reply

    Ivana

    The rape scene was unnecessary because the whose storyline was unnecessary, pointless and completely illogical. Why the heck would Sansa marry Ramsay Bolton?! Nothing about that marriage makes any sense.

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    it does, it secures the north for the Boltons

    Reply

  5. Floor Acita

    Amanda Marcotte: “Art isn’t about appealing to your intellectual knowledge of things. It’s about reaching you on a deeper, more emotional level. And the fact that a lot of people still expect things like the last minute daring rescue—or assume that being raped makes a character weak—shows that while they may intellectually know that rape is wrong, they haven’t really haven’t grappled with what rape is, what it does to people, and what is so wrong about it. Art, even art that makes you profoundly uncomfortable—hell, especially art that makes you profoundly uncomfortable—can drive those arguments home.”
    http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefully-of-the-bad-arguments-about-rape-on-game-of-thrones-debunked/

    Reply

    Ivana

    LOL at the idea that this was some profound artistic statement about rape and what it does to people, rather than a blatant attempt at shock value – not to mention sexual fetishization of it (the way Sansa’s face and body is shot in the latest episode tells you all you need to know).

    These essays say all there is to say about this, and debunk all the bad arguments from the article above:

    http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/119391541235/why-sansa-really-kneeled-how-sexism-shaped-sansa
    https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/unbroken-unbent-unbroken-unbowed-unbowed-unbent/
    http://feministfiction.com/2015/05/18/unbowed-unbent-unbroken-why-that-scene-made-no-sense/

    And one from weeks ago, proving that people already had a problem with this nonsensical plot the moment it had Sansa agree to marry Ramsay for some unfathomable reason:
    http://feministfiction.com/2015/05/18/unbowed-unbent-unbroken-why-that-scene-made-no-sense/

    Reply

    A Podcast of Ice and Fire

    If you post 3 or more links in a single post, it will need mod approval to go through, that is why this went up later.

    Reply

    Ivana

    And just one more comment about the often repeated argument that people are more upset o
    because it’s Sansa. Of course we are! Taking a major female character who has her own story and and is on the road of becoming powerful after having survived abuse and a hostage situation, only to revert her back to victimhood and brutalised her more than ever, for the sake of two supporting male characters, upsets people.

    You know what the term “Women in Refrigerators” means? It originally referred to comics stories where women were killed, raped or depowered to propel a man’s story.

    Now imagine these two scenarios:

    In a comic, a woman called Jane, minor character, is kidnapped, abused and tortured by the villain, and Robin needs to save her.

    In the movie based on DC comics, the writers decide that that story was great, but it would beach better if Wonder Woman took Jane’s role. So, they write a story in which Wonder Woman id easily manipulated and persuaded to make the strange and disastrous choice to go the villain’s lair and become his mistress or wife, thinking that is the only way to bring him down – because she has forgotten that she has powers of her own and can do stuff; the villain puts her in chains and rapes her repeatedly – and this to motivate Robin into action.

    Which do you think would cause more outrage?

    And if someone said: “but you are all only upset because it’s Wonder Woman! Didn’t you care about Jane?” or “the writers are just trying to treat rape seriously!” or “but rape happens, why are you against its depiction?”, don’t you think they would be missing the point?

    Reply

    Floor Acita

    sorry, but Sansa is NOT Wonder Woman – she just isn’t – that IS the difference in the story. She isn’t in the books either – again, you really think she is save with Harry the Heir OR Littlefinger? You really think she could’ve said NO? We saw what happened to Ned Stark, hand of the king, after he “choose” to refuse Littlefinger – you basically say, because we see women being marginalized in a story like this, means, that we think “well, obviously women ARE just pawns / cannot be taken seriously / have not the same strength men have” etc. NO, nobody thinks that – it all depends on the circumstance – women’s rights have to be fought for, every step of the way – they’re not just there, because she decides that she’s powerful from now on – the story they’re telling IS based on medieval history – of course women still don’t have the same rights as men ARE equal etc – but you can’t argue that back then, it WAS way worse – that’s what Amanda was saying – the totality of this form of patriarchy is still fairly underestimated…

    Reply

    Ivana

    I never said Sansa was a Wonder Woman. And Theon is obviously not Robin!

    I thought it should have been obvious what I meant – there is a difference between main female characters, who have their own storylines – which include character development and agency (and in Sansa’s case, she has political leverage that she just forgot about in the show) and minor characters who are there just for a male character’s story. It should be clear why people are more upset with “fridging” the former than the latter!

    Reply

    Ivana

    Nothing about the storyline of Sansa marrying Ramsay is based on medieval history, or the rules of show’s universe, or common sense or elementary logic. Bringing up REALISM to defend the existence of that storyline is hilarious.

    Reply

    Ivana

    “We saw what happened to Ned Stark, hand of the king, after he “choose” to refuse Littlefinger ”

    Huh? Apart from the fact that Sansa doesn’t know about Littlefinger betraying her father, Sansa on the show is not supposed to be afraid of Littlefinger. The show made a big deal about how she feels confident with him, how she has power in that relationship. Haven’t you seen season 4? Or the first two episodes of season 5?

    And he did not try to force her, he gave her a choice (“say no and we will turn back”) and manipulated her, and we saw her persuaded in 2 minutes with his completely ridiculous arguments.

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  6. Floor Acita

    “The show made a big deal about how she feels confident with him, how she has power in that relationship”

    Sorry, but no, that’s what fans did – I NEVER bought the “now she’s playing Littlefinger” argument – I think that was more of a fan fic, something that people wanted to believe – same for the books btw, I also don’t buy it there, but that’s a minor isue…

    “and in Sansa’s case, she has political leverage that she just forgot about in the show”

    You’re right! I forgot the fact that in the show LF is more or less dependent on her, because she knows the truth about Lysa – the “trial” or hearing btw in the Eyrie was clearly a complete dumb-down of Littlefinger on behalf of Sansa. That still doesn’t prove that she can necessarily play him, but that he’s utterly stupid to not have any plan going into that room…

    “It’s not the rape that makes her look stupid, it’s the fact she agreed to marry Ramsay. That made her look: 1) incredibly stupid, 2) insane, and/or 3) a completely implausible character who does not act like a real human being but as a product of bad writing.”

    “And he did not try to force her, he gave her a choice (“say no and we will turn back”) and manipulated her, and we saw her persuaded in 2 minutes with his completely ridiculous arguments.”

    Exactly! We have to wait how that plays out, why they did THAT and then we can judge about the overall storyline, if all of that was worth the pay-off or necessary at all, but THAT was clearly the pivotal moment for Sansa herself as for the question at hand (of her character / development).
    But so you’re basically making my point here, because — there was no outrage after episode 4 ! —

    In my very first post here I wrote:
    “So if weeks ago, people had said “I don’t like this decision, because of the consequences/complications”, I’d understood it (I also prefer the book version of events) ”

    I don’t know, if I can say “we all bought”, but I can say the majority of people who outraged after episode 6, apparantly bought into that storyline, bought into her marrying Ramsay, making this decision, being suaded by LF (hell, I thought “yeah, now she’s going to rally the Manderly’s and the Umbers and the mountain clains and personally stabs Roose, whispering in his ears “the Starks send their regards”…) – and that’s exactly WHY they HAD TO do the rape scene: to shatter our stupid dreams about stupid knights and their fair maidens riding into the sunshine saving the day – WE had to learn, WE had to realize: that’s not the world we’re following…

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  7. Lol Feminist Rants

    I’m honestly okay with Sansa being raped. Worse things have happened in both the shows and in the books.
    True, it did kinda kill me that it happened since Sansa is my favourite character, but I’m okay with it in the long run. What I object to is how poorly the show is marrying George’s story lines into their own new story lines. Everything that happens to Sansa between fleeing Kings Landing and returning to Winterfell is some of the worst writing on the show apart from the Mary-Sue’ing of Tyrion’s character and motivations.

    The fact that Sansa got raped forced me to think about why I reacted so strongly when I don’t even flinch during the billions of scenes of men being brutally killed in battle.
    There is a thing about GoT and aSoIaF and that is that no one is safe. Ever. Something bad is going to happen to everyone. I do not believe that getting raped is in any way worse than witnessing your own father’s beheading, knowing that you played a role in his demise, and then being forced to look at his head on a pike.
    I do not believe rape can ever be worse than something like that.
    I am a rape victim myself and I would rather get raped than watch someone I love being murdered because of me.
    I would also rather be raped than being mutilated like Theon was.

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