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Episode 80: Blackwater

Episode 80 for the week of May 29th, in which we review the ninth episode in the second season of HBO’s Game of Thrones. Fan favorite Larry from Otaku Assemble joins us for the review, as well as linecom1 and cosmia, two returning guest hosts from our forums.

After a lengthy main episode, the podcast hosts an aftershow of Tormund Giantsbane proportions, asking three questions of Fuzzymotion, Elio, and Stefan, as well as a large group of our listeners and forum members.

Notes: First, to get in on The Hound vs Bronn (book versions) debate, vote in the relevant forum thread. Second, we know that the latest episodes are having trouble appearing on the iTunes store and we are working on the problem – for now you can subscribe to the RSS feed directly in iTunes or another RSS reader or download the episodes from our website. Finally, the version of Rains of Castamere played at the end of the main show was produced by Douglas.

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217 Comments, Comment or Ping

  1. Servant_of_the_Sand

    Larry needs to just quit the series. Every since Ned died he’s nit-picked everything and reaches for reasons to insult GRRM. Having half your face burned off isn’t a reason to be afraid of fire?

    Reply

    Josh

    I have to second this sentiment. His ignorance of the story used to be amusing but now all he does is complain about the show or complain about his viewers. When most of the time it’s just him not understanding something fairly obvious that the show beats you over the head with, I mean he thought Robb had cannon ffs.

    Reply

    Josh

    CANNONS*

    Reply

    Rick

    i disagree… larry offers more of a gut-response to the tv series itself- not the books- that’s why we love him.. if the reviews have been less enthusiastic this season, maybe it has something to do with the fact that this season is not quite as engaging as the first- though still good.

    Reply

    Josh

    I disagree, I watch a lot of non reader reviews on youtube and none of them come up with the nonsense Larry brings up (CANNONS) and most them totally got that the hound was scared of fire.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    A gut response is “that was good” or “that was bad”
    having a gut response in what is meant to be a in depth look at a subject is useless.
    To many opinions for a gut reaction.

    Reply

  2. Usurpationblitz

    Very fun episode, thanks for getting everyone in on it. I really like the longer after shows and the random calls. Thanks for asking my question as well.

    Reply

  3. sadrobotsings

    It’s amusing to see that Larry has become just as bitchy as a true book fan.

    Reply

    Servant_of_the_Sand

    ^ Truth. hahaha. I just REALLY want him to read the books!!

    Reply

  4. lane

    there would have been no way for stannis to win after tywin and the tyrells joined and got there in time. they combined for like 80,000 and Stannis only had like 20,000 men to start the battle off with. so once they showed up…he was done.

    Reply

    brynden

    But he could have taken Kingslanding – and that would have been a HUGE game-changer. With Cersei and Tommen (and maybe Joff) under his custody Tywin could have done nothing and the the Tyrells (under Littlefingers influnece) may have changed sides again – Mance’s position was as comfortable as in Robert’s rebellion – he could have easily lifted the siege and became Stannis’ man.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Not so sure. It still would have taken ages for stanis to fight his way up to the red keep. When Tywin arrived Stannis had barely breached the outer walls of the city. He would still have to fight his way over the walls of the castle itself. Having to fight the soldiers within the city and on the castle whilst trying to hold off Tywin, his men and Loras and the extra men he brought from Highgarden. Don’t think Stannis would have stood a chance.

    Reply

  5. Lady Griffin

    Every time Ashley mentions the SanSan community, I imagine a cloaked commune in a secret bunker. She turns off Skype, tugs up her hood, and goes to her *other* meeting. :)

    Sad to see Larry’s interest waning. But oh man, I kept wanting someone to scream STOP when linecom1 started talking about Robb knocking boots with Talisa. Don’t. Rattle. The. Cage!

    Thanks for including me. It was fun.

    Reply

    Linecom1

    haha hopefully i didnt ruin it for him………ashley did a good job of playing it cool the whole way through so as to keep larry from suspecting too much……….oops…………

    Reply

    Lady Griffin

    Leading is just as bad as spoiling, sweet summer child.

    I’m afraid we must flay your tongue.

    *six hours later*

    Now…..Tell me what your name rhymes with. >:D

    Reply

    rpawson

    Amen.

    Reply

  6. Combeboy

    Larry needs to go away. He constantly mixes up his facts. Seems to not spot things that are blatantly obvious to anyone who watched the show. He complains constantly that characters are not the way he expects them to be even if they are acting exactly as you would expect them to in the context of their character. Not to mention the lad’s seeming inability to formulate a thought into actual words ‘now here’s the thing’ ‘this is the thing’ ‘ill tell you what’ repeated half a dozen times before any coherent point is actually made.

    A long time listener and was so sad that I found myself so irritated by Larry that I couldn’t listen to the show covering the most exciting and best episode in the yet.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    I accidentally a word. XD

    Reply

    Andres

    Agree! He is a babbling fool incapable of reason; any time he is in an episode, it is time to press the fast-forward button.

    It is actually fortunate that he hasn´t read the series, since I am thus guaranteed to have a listen-able portion of the episode.

    Reply

  7. Did Larry miss the line where the hound said to the commander of the archers that if any fire arrows get anywhere near him he will strangle him with his own entrails? I thought that along with the oh fuck me look plus the way he said the Blackwater is on fire in just complete disbelief showed that fire aw a problem. Oh I also had two nonbookreader friends who got that the fire was the main issue/turning point for his fuck you I am gtfo-ing…

    Reply

    DarthZombie

    Bla, I skipped a thought in there, the oh fuck me look that Sandor gave right after the wildfire explosion was telling…

    Reply

    DarthZombie

    Lol remembered something else in the SanSan scene when he said he just wants to go someplace not on fire. I thought this episode hit you on the head repeatedly with the reason. Now HBO hadn’t been slowly building it up through the series so far which you could complain about but Larry missed a lot of blatant clues during Blackwater…

    Reply

  8. Olivia

    You guys are terrible. Saying stuff like Larry should just quit the series or needs to go away. Who the hell are you guys? It’s up to the hosts if Larry gets invited, not you. Plus, if Larry wanted to stop watching, he already would have.

    Anyway, good podcast guys – I enjoyed listening,

    Reply

    Ranjitb

    That’s why its called the Brotherhood without Manners ?

    Reply

    Combeboy

    I am a guy who loves listening to the show yet finds Larry incredibly annoying therefore I voice that opinion, and my wish for him to not appear any more. I am well aware that how the show is run is decided by the hosts and creators, however if those who use the product do not voice their opinions regarding the subject then nothing would ever change or improve. Whilst I love the show and this podcast I do believe the absence of Larry from any and all material in relation to either is a bonus. I am also aware that I may be a minority and I may be a single voice in many and one that others may not agree with, yet that should not stop one from voicing such opinion. It may turn out that I am not such a minority and it may turn out that many people agree with me. Won’t know till someone speaks up.
    I respect your decision to disagree with my opinion and I hope this answers the question of who the hell I am. Thank you.

    Reply

    Servant_of_the_Sand

    ^ seconded. In season 1 where Larry actually paid attention he was good to watch/listen too. Now he’s not. It’s just a fact. If I wanted to listen to someone complain about something they don’t/don’t want to comprehend I’d watch Fox News.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Seems I am not such a minority after all.

    Reply

    The Warden of the North

    You are not in the minority. I have two friends who refuse to listen to episodes with Larry in them and I am about to join them. Besides being an annoying moron he completely takes away what makes this particular review of the special – that these are knowledgable book readers. If you want a pure show review go see Larry, andy greenwald or alan speinwall. Its bullshit that every 2 minutes Amin has to table a discussion to the aftershow and then we have a 3 hour podcast

    Reply

    Ezio

    ^ I agree

    Reply

  9. razycus

    Larry said that he was spoiled about something from book 3. Was that about the Red Wedding? He didn’t sound very upset to I’m guessing it’s Jaime’s hand on something. I really want to hear/see his reaction after season 3. :D I think he will break before he bends ;)

    Reply

    Altair

    Nope, it was RW he knows the” who” but not the “where”, “why”, or “how”.

    Reply

    Servant_of_the_Sand

    And since that knowledge kills any chance of his beloved Starks winning the war, he’s checked out emotionally before he really gets to KNOW the other characters

    Reply

  10. emrysaki

    Wait, are listeners of this podcast really on someone’s case about their “shocking lack of knowledge”? For shame, you guys. XD

    Reply

    cosmia

    I don’t think my shocking lack of knowledge showed too much, but it was clearly obvious that I don’t understand anything about the mechanics of the Blackwater battle except for “KING’S LANDING VS STANNIS GREEN FIRE SHIPS BLOW UP”

    Reply

    emrysaki

    And really, what more do you need?

    Reply

    emrysaki

    I made a flippant reply, but to clarify, I love all the guest hosts that we get and I think it’s really unfair to say that everyone who guest hosts has to be a complete expert on every single ASOIAF/GoT topic or else they get torn to shreds by listeners. I think this was a great episode, guys, I really enjoyed it!

    Reply

    Toadie

    If anything, it’s Amin’s knowledge of (real world) geography that I find the most shocking bit in this episode of the podcast. New Zealand and Austria, really? It must have been his fifth hour straight of recording, so I’ll let it fly this time ;)

    Reply

    Amin

    Maybe my editing of the episode made it more confusing, but there were two different people, one from Austria (Thomas, who never made it on the episode) and one from New Zealand (Tom, who did make it). Ashley herself misheard the first as Australia because of the lag. So we will let your shocking mishearing fly this time ;)

    Reply

  11. Ranjitb

    That’s the beauty of guest hosts – they are here for one episode and then they go away.
    There have been many guest hosts both one time and recurring that I love, and some that I don’t care for, but I still love the podcast and the show and the books and the fandoms.

    Although I could use a clip of Margaery saying “Calling yourself a fan favorite doesn’t make you one….” with a bitchy look on her face.

    Reply

  12. Toadie

    I find Larry’s perspective really valuable. It’s always refreshing to hear someone not exposed to the ASOIAF series judge the TV show based on its own merits.

    I find the current season a tad disappointing at times and on the whole a step-down from the awesomeness that was season 1. Part of it is probably what Larry or someone else mentions, namely that the freshness factor simply wore off.

    At first I thought that my own criticism is just me suffering from the “book purist” syndrome. However, along the road I’ve managed to distance myself enough to actually applaud certain decisions made by the screenwriters in the process of adapting the source material. Adding the interaction between Tywin and Arrya in Harrenhal was for one a brilliant decision that immensely improved the viewer’s understanding of who these central figures are and what drives them. This is particularly true of Charles Dance’s character who, up to this point, we learn about mainly through Tyrion’s POV chapters, and who is a major player in Clash of Kings.

    I tend to think that most changes were for the worse, however. Dany’s and Jon’s story arcs weren’t that good in the books to begin with and so adding the ridiculous chase scene between Jon and Ygritte served little in the grand scheme. Same goes for the torturing in king’s chamber. Producers were working with the 10 episode format in mind and should be really careful with such matters as often they do not contribute much in terms of enhancing the narration and end up eating up precious screen time. Emilia Clarke was amazing in the first season, but now she’s forced to repeat the same lines over and over, and as a result the screenwriters somehow made the audience loose interest in the main protagonist, at least that is the general view my non-reader friends have.

    Of all the great things that we saw on the last episode, the best scenes for me were those that helped to flesh-out secondary characters like Sandor or Shae and I think this is where the producers can really improve on going into season three.

    Sorry for being so long-winded, but I probably will never find time to register on the forum and wanted to spill my beans. Last but not least, thank you crew for the great podcast, it really helps me to survive the onslaught of exams I am having now.

    Reply

    Lady Griffin

    Dany’s chapters in Clash are some of my favorites, but I agree the creators flubbed in stretching Qarth beyond its tolerance.

    Most TV shows go through glum seasons, in any case. Lost’s third season almost killed the show, but was followed by a killer fourth season.

    Here’s hoping Seasons 3 and 4 are so awesome that viewers look back on 2 as “the slow burn.” ;P

    Reply

  13. Jeremy

    Arrrrgggghhhh! I missed Amin’s call!
    Sorry about that.

    Reply

  14. hodor

    Loved the podcast episode as always, really appreciate you guys taking the time to do these.

    I was also a big fan of this week’s show, although when they were showing the battle on the beach it almost felt like one of those Saved by the Bell gym scenes where they play a basketball game in a 20ft by 20ft room because they couldn’t afford an actual gym. I understand the budget constraints of a television show, and while I think a weekly show is the right format to tell the story, scenes like this make me wonder what they could have done with a lotr budget.

    Reply

  15. Andres

    Larry´s jive-talk makes me want to scratch out my own ears. I just fast forward to the adult part of the podcast when he goes away.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Jive talk? OK Grampa Simpson. What is this 1953? That’s how people talk in these here modern day times. Here read this article about it from the Wall Street Journal.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303610504577418660113838998.html

    Then proceed to watch The Wire seasons 1-5.

    Reply

    Will

    Larry’s “jive-talk” doesn’t bother me because it sounds like that is how he really talks which is fine. What grates one me is when the other people on the podcast try to talk that way back to him and it sounds really forced.

    Reply

  16. Lex

    Epic episode, for an epic episode review! Thanks for the after-show call!

    Reply

  17. Rog

    I guess I won’t be clicking on Larry’s little youtube channel anymore. Not only did the whole Sansa thing annoy me but the Click on my channel $$$ comment guy’s got to go.

    I’m glad Elio has a sense of humor, way to represent house Manwoody with the long aftershow.

    Reply

    Lady Griffin

    If I could make money every time someone clicked on my facebook page, I would. : /

    Reply

  18. Michelle

    Love Larry Williams and his reviews of Game of Thrones on OtakuASSEMBLE. :) I can’t understand the haters who are trashing on him and talking smack.

    I am jealous of Canadians who aren’t as overworked as we Americans are in our hyper-capitalist hellhole so they can have time to make Podcasts. :p

    The only thing annoying about this episode was the lady who was calling in on her crappy Skype line. That crackling grated on my spine like fingernails on a chalkboard.

    Reply

    Ranjitb

    I, in turn, can’t understand the hater-haters who insist that anyone who doesn’t have the same exact opinion as them is a “JEALOUS HATA!”

    Reply

  19. T.J.

    In GOT book: Kings Hand tournament!
    loras defeated the Mt.
    Hound defeated Jaime

    Mt. almost kills loras after losing n the hound saves loras.
    Loras forfeits Title to Hound in appreciation.

    conclusion: These are the 3 that Jaime suggests might stand a chance

    Reply

  20. 123

    Larry isn’t very bright and has far too high and unwarranted an opinion of himself.

    Reply

    hillaire

    Amen to that, his stupidly was endearing when I thought it was just ignorence. Now its obvious he can’t understand any subtly in the story at all its just annoying.

    Seriously i nearly flipped a table when he explained where Stannis had gone wrong and what he should have done. Not to mention his complete ignorance on both Alexander the Great and Richard the lionhart. Why bring them up if you know nothing about them.

    Also disappointed in the crew letting him talk such shit without putting him straight. Is he that big a star in the community that you let him get away with such rubbish.

    For shame.

    Reply

    Andy Warth

    Are you me?

    Seriously, he went from being a funny awkward nerdy guy to a smug ignorant jerk.

    Oh, love the Podcast by the way, you guys were great, but I wish you had put him in his place for talking so much stupidity.

    Reply

  21. mimi

    damn, y’all.

    Reply

  22. EnoughAlready

    Larry was barely amusing with his pre-scripted (yes I said it) “They killed my nigga Ned” speech. The podcast has enough logic and reason problems of their own with everyone blindly ignoring all facts about their favorite characters and mis-remembering or adding unwritten facts instead. Adding Larry’s wrongness to the mix just drags the whole thing down.

    Larry REALLY thinks that Stannis’ plan was “attack the mud gate. even if we could go around to every other gate just attack this one. period.” and somehow, his rant makes everyone who has actually read the books say “oh yeah, Larry is a better war planner than GRRM”

    Just embarrassing.

    Reply

    Andres

    There was nothing wrong with Stannis’ plan since he was about to WIN. He did not expect dead Renly’s Ghost/Knight of the Flowers + Tywin to come bursting in at the last second.

    Tell me what general can deal with a second front appearing late in the battle? Adrianople is a classic example from real history. Seen in this light, it is a wonder Stannis escaped with any army (or his head) at all. This is probably the most unrealistic part of the narrative right there, or a testament to what a stolid general Stannis is.

    Reply

  23. hmmmm

    Too much Larry. Hogging.

    Reply

  24. Lord Littlefinger

    Ashley:

    An episode or two ago you totally did it again. You called Arya a psychopath. Which she’s no more a psychopath than Robb or Ned or Tyrion.

    Reply

    Ash

    an easy term to use rather than saying she now has a killers morality concerning life and death. no empathy when someones life gets in her way. she was willing to kill an old lady over a horse.

    Reply

    Lady Griffin

    Huzzah to Ashley finally taking Arya down a peg! People give the little dock rat too much pardon. >:D

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Is she taking Arya down a peg? I rather thought those were Arya’s best characteristics.

    “A knight’s a sword with a horse. The rest, the vows and the sacred oils and the lady’s favors, they’re silk ribbons tied round the sword. Maybe the sword’s prettier with ribbons hanging off it, but it will kill you just as dead. Well, bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses. I’m the same as you. The only difference is, I don’t lie about what I am. So, kill me, but don’t call me a murderer while you stand there telling each other that your shit don’t stink. You hear me?”

    Sansa hugged herself, suddenly cold. “Why are you always so hateful? I was thanking you…”
    “Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes. What do you think a knight is for, girl? You think it’s all taking favors from ladies and looking fine in gold plate?

    Knights are for killing.”

    He laid the edge of his longsword against her neck, just under her ear. Sansa could feel the sharpness of the steel. “I killed my first man at twelve. I’ve lost count of how many I’ve killed since then. High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too-they’re all meat, and I’m the butcher. Let them have their lands and their gods and their gold. Let them have their sers.” Sandor Clegane spat at her feet to show what he thought of that. “So long as I have this,” he said, lifting the sword from her throat, “there’s no man on earth I need fear.”

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    As is appropriate for living in Westeros. Arya isn’t sadistic. She doesn’t kill people for no reason. She has her reasons, just like Ned did, when he killed someone.

    Reply

  25. Lord Littlefinger

    Also, how can you compare Davos to Ned Stark? How can you not like Davos?

    Ned Stark is an idiot, Davos is a willy smuggler.

    Reply

    Josh

    Were you trying to say wily? Or is Davos smuggling some Manwoody?

    Reply

    Combeboy

    hehe willy

    Reply

  26. Lord Littlefinger

    OK OK the Reynes of Castamere are about the REYNES. And the whole point is the Lannisters are greatly diminished under Tytos and Reynes also have gold and also have a Lion sigil.

    As with the Boltons or the Freys; the Reynes seek to supplant the Lannisters.

    And who are you, the proud lord said,
    that I must bow so low?

    ****Only a cat of a different coat,
    that’s all the truth I know.****

    In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
    a lion still has claws,
    And mine are long and sharp, my lord,
    as long and sharp as yours.

    Reply

  27. Lord Littlefinger

    LOL i’ve been saying the same thing about Sansa as Larry since I read the first book… Sansa is no Arya. ARYA WAS IN SANSA’S POSITION!!!! She crawled out the sewer and hid until she was able to find help. The Hound offered to take Sansa to River Run and she was too stupid to go!

    And in the books Sansa is a huge bitchy cheerleader, from the death of Jory, to her marriage to and treatment of Tyrion. To her dreams of marrying Loras or her prancing around in Lysa Tully’s most Tully dress in front of the Lords Declarant. She’s useless.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Yeah I kind of agree. I hated Sansa in first book. Spoiled, ignorant stupid. not so much since then though. She has been in captivity pretty much ever since and has been playing a part purely to survive. Even though her courtesies sometimes make her seem weak shallow and stupid I think she knows this but doesn’t really have a choice. I think the biggest problem for her is being to naive which does seem to take an awfully long time to be beating out of her. I am really interested to see where she goes from here though as she is now essentially being trained by the best player of the game of thrones. I am expecting her to be the little girly littlefinger before long. or so I hope.

    Reply

    Josh

    Yeah, Sansa is a naive/stupid little girl that loves fairy tales but that’s her role in the story. What Larry refuses to understand is that she’s an evolving character (like most of the characters in ASOIAF) shes the super naive dreamer that gets smacked hard by the harsh reality of the world and through her we witness how someone like her can survive and grow in this tough unfamiliar environment. So for someone to say shes useless is dumb because the story hasn’t ended yet and we don’t know what part she will play in the end of it all, still evolving.

    Reply

    Ash

    lol, yeah and Serio and Yoren had nothing to do with Arya “fixing” her situation. The girl should be dead 20x over, it’s only plot armour that’s kept her alive. Sansa is far more realistic.

    as far as i remember, Arya didn’t give a fuck about any of the other men that were killed, only the one that she had a personal relationship with, just like Sansa was upset by the Septa’s death. mistreatment of Tyrion? holy fuck, one minute she’s an idiot for trusting the Lanisters, the next she’s an idiot for not? after they cut off her fathers head and are at war with her brother? Jesus fucking christ, not trusting Tyrion was probably the smartest things she’s ever done. aside from not going with the Hound. unless you think it’s a great idea to run off with a broken, drunken man, who a moment earlier intended to rape and murder you, with no plan other than, “i’m the hound, no one will get in my way” as he rides out into a freaking battle field. yeah, sound totally legit. and by all accounts, Loras seems like a pretty damn good catch if she could land him.

    damn it, i told myself no more sansa ranting this week

    Reply

    cosmia

    I’ve never understood this obsession Sansa haters have with criticizingbe her for being “mean” to Tyrion. I know everyone is obsessed with Tyrion and he can do no wrong and all, but look: she’s 13 years old, she’s still holding on to a shred of hope that maybe she’ll get to marry a sweet handsome man one day after all, and then she’s forced to marry a disfigured dwarf twice her age who is related to someone who physically and emotionally abused her. Sure, he helped her out a few times, but like Ashley said, how is she supposed to truly trust the Lannisters? Yeah, I’d really want to be in THAT situation.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Its not an obsession. Tyrion is a competent lord, Sansa is a waste of space. Its perfectly reasonable for her not to like him. But I like him, and her treating him like shit just makes me dislike her.

    I don’t care how old she is. I might if Arya didn’t exist.

    She’s well aware Tyrion hates Cersei and Joffrey. She shouldn’t truly trust anyone however. That’s Lesson #1 of the Game of Thrones.

    “Trust no one, I once told Eddard Stark, but he would not listen. You are Alayne, and you must be Alayne all the time.”

    “Perhaps you should be the fool instead of me. Trust no one, my prince. Not your chainless maester, not your false father, not the gallant Duck nor the lovely Lemore nor these other fine friends who grew you from a bean. Above all, trust not the cheesemonger, nor the Spider, nor this little dragon queen you mean to marry. All that mistrust will sour your stomach and keep you awake by night, ’tis true, but better that than the long sleep that does not end.”

    Reply

    cosmia

    If you say she shouldn’t trust anyone then you’re counteracting your own argument, but ok.

    Arya and Sansa are incomparable. Both are doing different things, with different attitudes and different personalities. They are both strong in their own way. Not every young girl in a medieval fantasy world has to be an outspoken badass with a sword.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    you can work with someone or be married to them without trusting them. But trust is not the word I should have used. She shouldn’t trust Tyrion. She shouldn’t treat him like shit either.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    plot armor schmot armor. You’re begging the question. That’s a non-argument. Obviously any character that’s alive would be dead if the author had written that they died.

    Syrio and Yoren had a lot to do with Arya escaping. Just as Dontos, the Hound, Petyr and Tyrion have a lot to do with Sansa escaping and living long enough to do so.

    Its not the fact Sansa doesn’t care about the house hold guard that’s the problem. Its that she’s happy about it because Jory dressed stably while Alyn looked, ever so much finer….

    Sansa was upset about Septa Mordane’s death? Where does it say what? Where does she think it?

    Where did I say she was an idiot for trusting the Lannisters? I think it was perfectly reasonable for her to want to stay in Kingslanding and want to be Queen and to sell Ned out for that matter. Ned shouldn’t have told her. That’s on him.

    More over, Tyrion isn’t a Lannister. He hates Joffrey and Cersei. Something Sansa is well aware of and notes to herself. Tyrion was always a greater threat to his own family than he was to House Stark. And no. not trusting Tyrion is not smart. He’s a kind, intelligent resourceful lord who hates the same people she hates. She could have worked to create a separate power base with Tyrion and undermine Cersei and Joffrey. Trusting Dontos is far more foolish than trusting Tyrion.

    Sansa should have gone with the Hound. He didn’t intend to rape or murder her. Or maybe he intends it but isn’t capable of it, if you like. As far as we’ve seen Sandor has never raped or murdered anyone. He goes out of his way to not hurt innocent people. He later says he should have raped and murdered Sansa ***rather than*** letting Tyrion marry her. Just as he says he murdered Beric’s sentries. Like Tyrion, Sandor is treated like a monster because he looks like one. And like Tyrion, Sandor plays to people’s treatment of him. Partially because its useful and partly to hide how much it hurts hims. Sandor, told Sansa how to please Joffrey, refused to beat her, gave her his cloak when she was naked, rescued her from the mob, covered for lie about bad luck on a name day. Sansa has every reason to go with Sandor.

    But she can’t land Loras. He’s in the kings guard, which Sansa knows. And if she payed attention she’d realize he’s gayer than a basket of puppies. Yet for all her “graces” she manages to piss Loras off within 5 minutes of first talking to him.

    Reply

    Lady Griffin

    Sansa doesn’t know Tyrion. She doesn’t have access to his private thoughts and prejudices. At best, she sees at court. Him saving her from Joffrey’s beating means nothing if she doesn’t know the motivation behind it. She’s sharp enough to know people are conspiring around her, and wise not to trust Tyrion’s help.

    Trusting Tyrion is smart from our point of view, not Sansa’s. He may hate Cersei, Joffrey, and Tywin, but it was in his complete interest to keep them in power. By the time he turned on them, Sansa was gone. How that makes him *not* a Lannister is beyond me.

    How does Sansa know Sandor won’t rape her? You keep saying WE haven’t seen him rape or murder. He’s given her protective attention, but that doesn’t equal safety. If I was a thirteen year old girl surrounded by enemies, I sure as hell wouldn’t run off into a burning city with a drunk, violent, sexually threatening behemoth. “Sansa has every reason to go with Sandor” is the frustrated cry of the reader, not the character.

    Of course she can’t land Loras. But fans still take the piss out of Sansa for crushing on him. You know, like a thirteen year old girl. :/

    And yet, no one ever shakes the living shit out of Arya for wasting three death wishes. Criminy.

    Reply

    cosmia

    I’m too lazy to write a big long response but this is a perfect response, thank you. And anyone who doesn’t side-eye at Tyrion’s behaviour some of the time (Dance, for real), well…dude’s not perfect. I think everyone who hates Sansa just hasn’t been a girly 13 year old girl. Don’t hold Arya in higher regard just because she’s an aggressive tomboy with a sword and Sansa likes pretty things and is more reserved and timid when it comes to how she responds to situations.

    Reply

    Inkasrain

    Dear Ashley, cosmia and LG,

    I am now fangirling on all three of you.

    Carry on.

    Reply

    Linecom1

    its a good thing they aren’t lemurs, b/c then your emotions would be more complicated……. #itoldyouthiswasntover

    Reply

    Inkasrain

    I like complicated emotions. When was the last time you got a complicated emotion from a lemur?

    #keepemcomingbro

    Reply

    Linecom1

    when was the last time? oh i dont know, probably when i chilled with my ihomie momo, you know, b/c i’m not a lemur racist or anything….
    #icandanceallday #teammomo #ihopepeoplearentconfused #butwhoamikiddingtheyprobablyare

    Reply

    Inkasrain

    HEY EVERYONE, AUGUSTINE HAS FEELINGS FOR LEMURS!!!

    #youweresaying?

    Reply

    Linecom1

    i sure do………and those feelings are completely platonic and endearing, oh lets not forget tolerant, i prefer not to judge creatures based on the color of their fur……….you know not a species-racist……. BUT IF ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW A SPECIES-RACIST, I CANT NAME AT LEAST ONE UPTOWN GIRL!!!!

    #nicetry
    #podcastdoctor>teamblacksmith

    Reply

    Inkasrain

    Oh, don’t you judge creatures by the color of their fur? How many dark-fuzzed fire ferrets can YOU claim affection for, Doc? HMM??

    #Iwentthrere #dirtyjokeaboutblacksmithsbeingbetterthandoctors

    Reply

    Linecom1

    as a matter of fact i do not, as so eloquently stated in this thread: http://podcastoficeandfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1176&start=20

    i clearly elucidated my thoughts on the matter and how i, infact, do not have any affections for firefoxes/ferrets/racoons based on reasons beyond aesthetic appearance, but rather, personality and character traits….

    #youthoughtyouwenttherebutyoudidnt
    #therearenomoreblacksmithsinnycbuttherearestillplentyofdoctors
    #yourowncityisonmyside
    #check
    #andmate

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    No…. We don’t like her BECAUSE she’s a “girly” (whatever that means) 13 year old girl. I’m not sure why being useless some how makes Sansa any more feminine than Arya. I don’t know why being delusional isn’t called boyly

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    “I’ll have no bedding.”
    Joffrey seized Sansa’s arm. “You will if I command it.”
    The Imp slammed his dagger down in the table, where it stood quivering. “Then you’ll service your own bride with a wooden prick. I’ll geld you, I swear it.”
    A shocked silence fell. Sansa pulled away from Joffrey, but he had a grip on her, and her sleeve ripped. No one even seemed to hear. Queen Cersei turned to her father. “Did you hear him?”
    Lord Tywin rose from his seat. “I believe we can dispense with the bedding. Tyrion, I am certain you did not mean to threaten the king’s royal person.”
    Sansa saw a spasm of rage pass across her husband’s face. “I misspoke,” he said. “It was a bad jape, sire.”
    “You threatened to geld me!” Joffrey said shrilly.
    “I did, Your Grace,” said Tyrion,”

    ““My father had no time for books.” Joffrey shoved the tome across the table. “If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now.” He laughed… and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him. “Don’t be sad, Sansa, once I’ve gotten Queen Margaery with child I’ll visit your bedchamber and show my little uncle how it’s done.”
    Sansa reddened. She glanced nervously at Tyrion, afraid of what he might say. This could turn as nasty as the bedding had at their own feast. But for once the dwarf filled his mouth with wine instead of words.”

    “As Sansa stepped back, Lady Lysa caught her wrist. “Now tell me,” she said sharply. “Are you with child? The truth now, I will know if you lie.”
    “No,” she said, startled by the question.
    “You are a woman flowered, are you not?”
    “Yes.” Sansa knew the truth of her flowering could not be long hidden in the Eyrie. “Tyrion didn’t… he never…” She could feel the blush creeping up her cheeks. “I am still a maid.”
    “Was the dwarf incapable?”
    “No. He was only… he was…” Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt who hated him so.”

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Its not in Tyrion’s interest to keep them in power. Because Cersei influences’ Tywin and Joffrey will murder him as soon as he comes into his power. Its in Tyrion’s interest to get rid of Joffrey and to do that he has to supplant Cersei and Tywin.

    Sansa doesn’t know Sandor won’t rape her. She doesn’t know Tyrion won’t rape her. She doesn’t know Dontos won’t rape her. She doesn’t know Petyr won’t rape her.

    Sansa does know what happened to Lolys and Tyrek and that but-fore the Hound she’d have been ripped into pieces already. That no one has protected her more than the Hound, including her father.

    Yes, the’s a 13 year old girl. I do not like 13 year old girls or have any interest in reading about them…. what is your point?

    Wasted from who’s perspective? I don’t really care about the other Starks besides Arya. I’d rather Robb be dead than Tywin. Arya could’ve killed Tywin it would have been smarter from the objective of preserving her family’s power. But I’m not sure why should really care. Wease is a much bigger pain in her ass than Jamie Lannister.

    Reply

    Zeyik

    1) Why would Sansa go with the hound, when as far as she knows, the Lannister have just lost the battle and Stannis is taking King’s Landing? Would it be smarter to wait and hide until he actually comes to the Red Keep or go out into a war zone with only one man to protect her? The show did a good job of conveying it and it is clearly represented in the books that the Lannister were losing.

    2) My memory is fuzzy on some points but I recall her not bending down for Tyrion to place the cloak on her and not wanting to sleep with him. The first part happening right after she is blindsided into marrying him so she is obviously angry at the situation. Your above passage just shows the slow progress of feelings, hardly romantic but feelings none the less.

    3) I hate it when people use the term useless character especially in ASOIAF because the story is not over yet. People progress and change and you have every right to not like a character but I would refrain from using that term until the story ends.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Why should Stannis help Sansa? Why wouldn’t he mount her head next to Joffrey’s on the ramparts? She the sister of treasonous dog. A treasonous “king”. She who is therefore chockablock full of kingsblood? The daughter of the man who Robert treated more like a brother than Stannis himself?

    Why would she live long enough for Stannis to come to contemplate her?

    “Won’t your guards protect us?”
    “And who will protect us from my guards?” The queen gave Osfryd a sideways look. “Loyal sellswords are rare as virgin whores. If the battle is lost my guards will trip on those crimson cloaks in their haste to rip them off. They’ll steal what they can and flee, along with the serving men, washer women, and stableboys, all out to save their own worthless hides. Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn’t, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there’s such a dearth of good sacking songs.”

    She needs to get out before Stannis gets in.

    “Your Grace,” said Jorah Mormont, “I saw King’s Landing after the Sack. Babes were butchered that day as well, and old men, and children at play. More women were raped than you can count. There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs. The scent of blood is all it takes to wake him.

    Reply

    Zeyik

    I don’t know maybe the fact that he tells Catelyn during his meeting with Renly that she will have justice for Ned’s death and if he finds the her girls he will send them back to her alive or dead. Stannis knows what the starks want. They would easily fall in line with Stannis if he did so why wouldn’t he. Stannis showed in ADWD that he was willing to comprimise if it helped him. The Starks bending the knee is better than having to to war.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    He showed he was willing to compromise in Clash of Kings. He didn’t execute all the Tyrell bannermen for treason. He switched his religion.

    Sansa doesn’t know about that conversation. And Stannis also states house Stark is in open rebellion and that the punishment for treason is death.

    “You presume too much, Lady Stark. I am the rightful king, and your son no less a traitor than my brother here. His day will come as well.”

    There’s no way Sansa should have more faith in Stannis and staying in a city while its sacked than escaping with Sandor who’s saved her life on multiple occasions.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    In the passage above the point was Sansa is aware that Tyrion hates his family.

    I don’t think Sansa is a useless character I think she’s a useless person. She may well have some use for the purpose of Martin telling his story. But personally, I hope she chokes on a lemon cake.

    Reply

    Sisaat

    Correct me if I’m reading this wrong, but are you saying Sansa is a useless person because she’s a normal 13 years old girl?

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Yeah basically. I don’t have any use for normal 13 year old girls. I am not interested in them. If they all died tomorrow it wouldn’t really effect my life.

    Reply

    Lady Griffin

    The shocking truth comes out (eye roll).

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    how is that shocking, I thought that was quite clear. Arya is not average and therefore is interesting. Neither is Sandor, Jon Snow, Catelyn, Lady Olena, Tywin, or anyone else of interest in the series.

    Reply

    cosmia

    Aha, I knew there was some sort of vaguely misogynistic bias in there. Not surprised at all.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Excuse me?

    There’s nothing misogynistic about that. You’re the one who keeps insisting on Sansa’s girlishness. I have no interest in or use for the average 13 year old boy either. I don’t care to read about them. And if they all dropped dead I certainly wouldn’t care.

    As with Mimi, I found Bran to be quite unbearable until he was imbued with magic powers.

    Reply

    Goodlovin

    “effect” your life

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    quite right. I am me after all, at least I was last time I checked. Were I 13 I would care far more for 13 year old girls and boys as I did when I was.

    Reply

  28. Lord Littlefinger

    Re: Stannis’ attack on Kingslanding

    Part of this is inconsistent with books. Stannis couldn’t even get across the Blackwater with the fleet burned. Its only the happenstance that the ships pile together that allows Stannis to cross. That wasn’t a pontoon bridge. That wasn’t designed to happen.

    So once Stannis gets across his attack is completely disorganized and almost still succeeds.

    I wasn’t even going to watch this episode but everyone’s been raving about it all week. I usually skip the battle of the blackwater when I reread.

    Reply

  29. Lord Littlefinger

    Also, sometimes generals are the first ones to take the ramparts. Especially when they only have a tenuous hold on power. Napoleon at Arcole, comes to mind. And Napoleon believed in his lucky star as Stannis believes he is destined to be king of Westeros and save it from the gathering darkness.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/La_Bataille_du_Pont_d%27Arcole.jpg/790px-La_Bataille_du_Pont_d%27Arcole.jpg

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bridge_of_Arcole

    Reply

  30. Combeboy

    My three for who Jamie thinks can beat him are The Hound, The Mountain and Ser Barristan. But I think there are a couple others out there who may be able to best him.
    Howland Reed being one of these others, however I don’t know if Jamie counts him> as far as I know Jamie hasn’t had any experiences with Reed and the only time we know of Reed having any interaction with the world outside of Greywater Watch is fighting alongside Ned in the Tower of Joy.
    So I think those may be the 3 that Jamie is talking about yet I think there are others who he may underestimate or not really know about.

    Personally I’m still conflicted on whether Ned could have beaten Jamie or not, as at no point are we really given no clear indication of Ned’s skills other than vague references to him being a badass and owning some people here and there when he was younger.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Jamie has an overly high opinion of himself. He says he thinks he can beat the Hound and the Mountain. From what we see of Jamie’s heedless style and how Oberyn fought the Mountain, Gregor would squash Jamie. I’m not sure Jamie could even beat Brienne.

    “She is stronger than I am.
    The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain’s strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all. But this was a woman. A huge cow of a woman, to be sure, but even so… by rights, she should be the one wearing down.
    Instead she forced him back into the brook again, shouting, “Yield! Throw down the sword!”

    I think the Hound should be able to beat Bronn, but Bronn is very crafty. He’s one of the few people I could see beating the Hound. The way he bested Ser Balman in the single combat joust. He seems like the type of person who would douse the Hound in oil and light him on fire.

    It took the rest of the flagon before the queen was finally able to coax the whole sad tale out of Lady Falyse. Once she had, she did not know whether to laugh or rage. “Single combat,” she repeated. Is there no one in the Seven Kingdoms that I can rely upon? Am I the only one in Westeros with a pinch of wits? “You are telling me Ser Balman challenged Bronn to single combat?”
    “He said it would be s-s-simple. The lance is a kn-knight’s weapon, he said, and B-Bronn was no true knight. Balman said he would unhorse him and finish him as he lay st-st-stunned.”
    Bronn was no knight, that was true. Bronn was a battle-hardened killer. Your cretin of a husband wrote his own death warrant. “A splendid plan. Dare I ask how it went awry?”
    “B-Bronn drove his lance through the chest of Balman’s poor h-h-h-horse. Balman, he… his legs were crushed when the beast fell. He screamed so piteously…”
    Sellswords have no pity, Cersei might have said. “I asked you to arrange a hunting mishap. An arrow gone astray, a fall from a horse, an angry boar… there are so many ways a man can die in the woods. None of them involving lances.”
    Falyse did not seem to hear her. “When I tried to run to my Balman, he, he, he struck me in the face. He made my lord c-c-confess. Balman was crying out for Maester Frenken to attend him, but the sellsword, he, he, he…”
    “Confess?” Cersei did not like that word. “I trust our brave Ser Balman held his tongue.”
    “Bronn put a dagger in his eye, and told me I had best be gone from Stokeworth before the sun went down or I’d get the same. He said he’d pass me around to the g-g-garrison, if any of them would have me. When I ordered Bronn seized, one of his knights had the insolence to say that I
    should do as Lord Stokeworth said. He called him Lord Stokeworth!” Lady Falyse clutched at the queen’s hand. “Your Grace must give me knights. A hundred knights! And crossbowmen, to take my castle back. Stokeworth is mine! They would not even permit me to gather up my clothes! Bronn said they were his wife’s clothes now, all my s-silks and velvets.”

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Yeah I know he thinks he is pretty much the best in the books. Just thinking who he may be referring to in the show.
    trying to think who else then. Barristan probably even though he is getting on a bit, still a badass.

    I think that Bronn would take out the hound. If they were forced to fight fair The Hound would win, but there’s no way Bronn would even attempt to fight under those circumstances so for me Bronn comes out the better of these 2 in a brawl. It is a toss up though Bronn is fast and agile and good at thinking on his feet in a fight but a single blow from the hound and he would be done.

    Reply

  31. Klasco

    Not a fan of that Larry guy, i’ll pass on this particular podcast.

    Reply

  32. Lord Littlefinger

    Clash is my favorite book as well. Its because you have the rise of Arya to the point where she outwits Jaquen and takes over Harrenhal. You have the sack of Winterfell and you have Tyrion at the height of his powers. At the end of the book all the players are still in the game. It seems like Robb could still win. Stannis is beaten but not broken. But basically the war is over and we just don’t know it yet. And neither to the people fighting in it. Everything turns on that one moment. on Garlan Tyrell putting on Renly’s Armor on Edmure successfully defending the fords.

    Reply

  33. darpavader

    larry saying that all he cares about was people clicking on his page so he could make money really pissed me off.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    I don’t think that”s what he meant. I think he was just surprised that there are people that like Sasna. If he didn’t get paid anything he still would have said it was his second most popular rant. And that people’s irrational love of Sansa still made his channel more popular.

    I confess being similarly shocked anyone liked Sansa when I ventured on to the Westeros forum.

    Reply

    Andres

    He seemed to essentially seems to be saying his fans are suckers. Which is fine, since I am no fan of his…

    Reply

    darpavader

    I don’t think the issue is about liking or not liking Sansa. Sure, I’m sure everyone wished she pushed Joffrey off that bridge, I’m sure she thinks about it too. But Larry saying that everyone who doesn’t agree with him is just jealous…huh? Jealous of what? His reviews? I liked his reaction last year to headless Ned, but after that I’m sorry, his reviews have been pretty bad. He doesn’t seem to grasp what is going on and wants all the characters to act the same.
    His battle plan for Stannis was just horrible. Splitting your forces up so they can be destroyed in a piecemeal fashion doesn’t seem to make sense.
    oh and st the start of the podcast when people were saying joking around, “I wonder who wroye this ep, it seemed like GRRM” Larry says, “I just want to tell everyone that it was GRRM who wrote the ep.” Really? Really?

    Reply

    Lex

    I think Larry was just a bit confused by linecom1′s joking comment “It almost felt like GRRM wrote the episode”. I think Larry was just confirming it for himself.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Again, you misunderstand. He’s just saying “Haters gonna hate” http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Haters%20Gonna%20Hate

    Regardless of what he posts, someone is going to have a problem with it. So he’s not going to get bent out of shape about it.

    Reply

  34. odd tactics

    I don’t know hoe it played out in the books, I forget. But in the show Tyrion seemed to make a huge mistake by sending his forces to fight outside the wall. There’s a reason why they built the walls to the city, they offer protection and by sending the Hound out there was sending men to their slaughter. Let Stannis sit outside. Even if Stannis’ men busted down the Mud Gate, only a certain amount could enter at a given time and the defenders still have a huge advantage. Tyrion in effect made the attackers the defenders and gave them the advantage. It seems whatever books Tyrion was reading on sieges were not very good. Stannis had the advantage in numbers on an open field but 5 to 1 attacking a walled city you most likely need more than that. I also don’t understand why Stannis landed his troops at the city. Amphibious landings are hard. Why not land a mile away uncontested? You then can march to the city by land and set up a traditional siege with siege weapons. Stannis must have known the moral was low in the city and any long term siege would most likely cause some revolt within the city. Did Stannis now that Lannister and Tyrell reinforcements were headed for the city? maybe that’s why he felt he had to move quickly? Loved the battle, but it did seem to have some odd tactics on both sides.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Pretty sure the logic behind that is to give us something cool to watch.

    Reply

    odd tactics

    haha, yeah I guess you’re right. But they could have done all of season three with a long drawn out siege of Kings Landing. They could have Dany walk through the desert for the another season, have Jon walk through the snow, and Aria learn how to bake from Hot Pie. It would be an epic third season.
    But you’re right, it was cool to watch.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Not. Its not odd. He trying to keep Stannis’ forces away from the base of the walls gates and force him back across the river. Tyrion only needs to stop them breaking through until the bridge of ships is destroyed. If Stannis actually made through a gate Tyrion expects the gold cloaks to throw down their weapons and run. Which they did anyway, even though Stannis didn’t get inside.

    If his forces were reliable then Tyrion might have tried to fight house to house and allow Stannis into the city. The way the Dornish defeated the Targeryans

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Don’t think we should focus to much on the way the battle was fought. not really important. It looked awesome we got some awesome moments out of it and that’s all we can ask for really. it’s a entertainment tv show not a documentary on how wars are fought.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    It reminds be of this commercial

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td4VEGiIQmk

    That is not entertaining.

    What’s entertaining to me is trying to predict the actions of the characters and the outcomes of battles and the state of political affairs. Based what we see in the show, that isn’t really possible. Everything needs to logically follow or I defeats the purpose.

    I’d rather watch Borgias at this point.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    See my reply to your other comment below with repeat of copy of this link for my reply to this comment.Thanks.

    Reply

    odd tactics

    Lord,

    There’s a reason people built large fortifications…to stay behind them. Going outside the gates to fight negates the wall. Why would you do that? As far as the bridge of ships concerned, that wasn’t in the show and even if it was, once the landing took place the ships role in the battle would be pretty small. Once Stannis saw that that Tyrion was willing to fight on open ground he should have stop any attempt to enter the city. just defeat them outside and then he could have walked in

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    if everyone in kingslanding went out there then you might have a point. But the weakest point of a fortification are the base and gates. If you allow the enemy uncontested access to them then you won’t have a fortification for long. Stannis’ case is even precarious because he has his back to the water and known enemy forces in his rear. He doesn’t know Tywin is coming down on him. But Stannis does know Tywin is out there somewhere and so Stannis doesn’t have unlimited breach kingslanding. In thing that can be done to prevent it brings reinforcements one day closer. But should Stannis breach the walls and the news reach Tywin before battle is joined, Tywin would probably head for Casterly Rock to regroup.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    at which point Tyrion would have gone back inside the walls. Its called a Sortie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortie

    Reply

  35. odd tactics

    sorry for typos:(

    Reply

    odd tactics

    Oh one more thing. When Tyrion brought his force from the sewer it seemed in the show that they were able to defeat Stannis’ forces at the Mud Gate pretty easily and destroy the battering ram. Then we saw more Stannis forces arrive. Question, where were those Stannis troops? Wouldn’t concentrating on getting through the gate be the top priority to try to negate the effects of the wall?

    Reply

  36. Combeboy

    I don’t think we should really concern ourselves to much with how the battle really played out tactically in the show.
    What we should be concerned with is:

    Stannis attacked & Stannis lost
    Tywin returned to Kings Landing and saved the day.
    The Tyrells are with Tywin.
    The Dog ran away, lets hope he wears a collar in case someone finds him. (I really wanna see Joff sticking up “have you seen this dog posters”)
    Tyrion got messed up by a Kingsguard.

    I think focusing on the battle itself to much is a mistake. It was there to look cool and give us something to awesome to watch which it was and did. It is like asking why the eagles just didn’t drop the ring in mount doom after flying there, not really the point is it?

    Reply

    odd tactics

    Right. Just interesting to think about the tactics of it all. Thank the New and the Old Gods I’m not writing the show or the books:)

    Reply

    Combeboy

    yeah I agree. just seems that some are getting a bit to invested in the way the battle was fought at the expense of the plot points within. Yeah I concur with you there would be the death of me.
    Writers are doing a cracking job. and I actually think it was wise for them to have slowed down Dany’s plot to focus on Westeros. As things start to slow down in Kings landing after the fight I think Dany’s plot will come more to the front next season ane we may see kings landing fade into the back a wee bit as Danys did this season. A balancing act. Can’t have to much plot at once. Some people already seem to be struggling to keep up.
    I think the writers are doing it extremely well.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    well the problem, basically what you’re saying is the show can’t be relied on to make sense. which is true. which is why its basically unwatchable.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Not what I said at all.
    What I have said is that they are balancing it well enough content to keep the story moving forward yet not to much to overwhelm the viewer.
    I was praising not criticising.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    “I don’t think we should really concern ourselves to much with how the battle really played out tactically in the show.”

    Uhhhhh…… WHAT? Why wouldn’t we concern ourselves with that? The series revolves around war. The fact that the battles don’t make any sense, that the actions of the characters don’t make any sense. How can that no concern us as an audience?

    “I think focusing on the battle itself to much is a mistake. It was there to look cool and give us something to awesome to watch which it was and did.”

    If it doesn’t make any sense its not awesome. Its just a bunch of people running around randomly screaming.

    “It is like asking why the eagles just didn’t drop the ring in mount doom after flying there, not really the point is it?”

    And that’s why Lord of the Rings is horrible, overly simplistic, uninteresting and not worth listening to a podcast about or reading. It doesn’t make any fucking sense.

    Tyrion got messed up by a Kingsguard.

    Why should we care? If people are just randomly doing things for not logical purpose then it shouldn’t make any difference that a Kingsguard attacked Tyrion.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    The battles do make sense. pay more attention to WHY rather than HOW and you may find yourself understanding these situations slightly better.

    Its an entertainment show not a documentary on how wars are fought
    If you nitpick every piece of fiction for small inconsistencies or plot holes then I don’t see how you could enjoy anything that has ever been made.

    It does make sense, they are Stannis’ men attacking a city. as far as they go that’s all I need to concern myself with in regards to them. The motivations of specific characters, The Hound, Stannis, Sansa, Cercei, Tyrion, The kingsguard who attacked Tyrion. This is what interests me.

    If the kingsguard has swung his sword left to right rather than right to left would you go mad about his technique. No cause it’s irrelevant and the outcome is the same. I look at WHY not HOW.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    I think a good example of this is that even though we haven’t even really seen a full scale battle until this point we are aware of the outcomes. People’s motivations in relation to these battles that we have never seen.
    As far as I am concerned I don’t need to know the exact way Robb won his fight and captured Jamie Lannister. What I need to know in relation to Robb’s character is his motivations for fighting the battle, the fact a battle was fought and the outcome. This is what is important not how the battle itself was fought at the time.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    That’s fine. I would be perfectly happy without any battles. As long as the outcomes of the unseen battles followed logically. So that I can use them to predict the outcomes other future potential battles.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    I do pay attention. That how I notice they don’t make sense. If Stannis has boats why was he waiting for Davos before attacking the city? Why didn’t Stannis attack all of the gates? Why would littlefinger tell Cersei he knows about her incest? Why would he explain his plans to his newest employees? Why would Robb send 2,000 men to face the entire Lannister army on the green fork?

    The problem is that the things you describe are not irrelevant. They should change the outcomes. They don’t. So the story doesn’t make sense.

    I don’t normally read fiction. And if I do its historical fiction. It was the heightened realism of historical fiction that inspired Martin to write Game of Thrones.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Ok from what I understood from the show it was Davos’ job to fight the fleet at King’s Landing and whilst they were busy Stannis and his fleet would land unhindered and take the city.

    Stannis attacked the mudgate as that was closest to where he could land and also the weakest point of the city defences. Dont know if he sent other forces to attack other points in the city defences or not.

    And I admit even I had to think about the little finger scene but what I got from it is that Littlefinger has had almost no interaction with the queen as she is only recently now sitting on the small council. He is trying to size her up, see how she plays the game. Yeah the incest Jibe was a bit much for Littlefinger. But I think it was to put the message across to the viewer not to mess with little missy queen regent.

    I dont see how Stannis’ apaprent lack of attacking another gate is relevant. Tywin appeared before Stannis’ troops fully breached the city never mind the castle itself. outcome was always gonna be the same.

    All this is at this point is quantifying semantics.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Tywin’s attack is only successful because of timing. Stannis has most of the Tyrell banner and two of Tywin’s armies have been defeated. He catches Stannis from behind, in the midst of an attack. If Stannis had already crossed the river… which he could do since he has boats, then Tywin woudn’t be able to take him in the rear. As for the royal fleet, all I saw was one boat.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Yeah he was successful due to timing because he timed it.
    He knew Staniis was heading for King’s Landing. He knew he wqould have the support from the Tyrells
    Stannis had none of the Tyrells. The rest of Renlys bannermen yes however is is said in the show that loras and the tyrell bannermen return to highgarden rather than submit to Stannis.
    Stanis didnt need to cross the river. He landed at the shore in front of the castle. Tywin appeared and caught him in the rear there in front of the walls of the city,

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    No. When Tywin leaves Harrenhal Renly is still alive there is no Tyrell alliance. And the Lannisters are on their last leg. Tywin leaves Harrenhal making for the Westerlands to face Robb Stark. Edmure Tully repels his advance. At which point riders from Kingslanding Tywin and he comes about. Then he meets links up with Petyr and the forces from Bitter Bridge and they float down the Black Water Rush disembarking before they get to the city. Its pure and total luck.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Tywin left harrenhall in episode 8 Renly died in episode 5.
    Littlefinger talks to Tywin and leaves for Highgarden in episode 6.
    Edmure hasnt even been introduced yet. as far as we know Edmure repelling Tywin never happened in the show.

    This is the show not the book. We watch Stannis land right outside the city. We see it happen!

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Littlefinger does not talk to Tywin. Nor does littlefinger talk to Catelyn bringing him a chest for a Ned’s bones. Littlefinger doesn’t leave Kingslanding until after Renly is dead. The book is what happened. The show is an adaptation. No one is going to write another version of the Book. When HBO is done shitting the bed in another 10 years we’ll get a new version of the show. I really couldn’t care less what happens on the show.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    You have just entirely voided everything you have been debating for. You cant deny the existence of something yet complain about it having happened.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    I can. I’m pointing out why the show doesn’t make sense. Why I don’t like it and would rather watch Borgias.

    Reply

    Andres

    The top of the comment mountain. Hurrah!

    Reply

    Combeboy

    yeah the royal fleet had 1 ship because it was full of wildfire. you don’t put your own boats next to that, that’s just silly.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    The battle here is not like the one in the books. No chain, No bridge of ships, no need to cross the river as they land on the shore directly in front of the walls of the castle and attack the mud gate directly as it is right in front of them. Therefore Tywin appears on the land in front of the castle and that is how he drives away Stannis’ forces.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    yeah i can’t separate the two. they’re the same battle.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    you do if you want don’t want your enemy to wonder why you’re not opposing them and if its a trap.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Dont you think thats exactly what Davos was thinking. His son was offering him options to why the fleet was not there. you could tell he thought something was up. Who would have thought we were gonna get a medieval nuke going off.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Uh, he should have already known how many ships were there before he sailed his entire fleet toward the city. And Stannis is there. If there are no ships Stannis should already be across the river.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    but going by your logic. in the books davos wasnt head of the fleet. he was taking orders and the head of the fleet had sent out scouts and therefore most likely aware of most of the enemy fleet being in the bay. so the attack went ahead as planned.
    as I said above you cant deny the existence of events cause they were not in the books and yet complain about them. If they don’t exist you can’t complain about them as they never happened and you don’t have anything to complain about.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    “but going by your logic. in the books davos wasnt head of the fleet. he was taking orders and the head of the fleet had sent out scouts and therefore most likely aware of most of the enemy fleet being in the bay. so the attack went ahead as planned.”

    Yeah, that’s what happened.

    “as I said above you cant deny the existence of events cause they were not in the books and yet complain about them. If they don’t exist you can’t complain about them as they never happened and you don’t have anything to complain about.”

    I can. I’m pointing out why the show doesn’t make sense. Why I don’t like it and would rather watch Borgias.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    The show does make sense. You just have to look at it on its own merits, following its own logic. of course if you randomly insert a scene from the books that wasnt included in the show you are gonna mess up the sequence of events and throw things into chaos. Thats why we look at them as seperate entities. yes we compare them we look at the similarities. some make great sense and are good changes. others not so much.
    if you dislike it as much as you claim then why are you here. Go watch the borgias.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    I’m here because I like the podcast and everyone kept saying the episode was so good all week. As I said above. I stopped watching the show a few episodes ago. But did finally watch this episode yesterday.

    I started out watching the show. I liked it very much until I read the books. They’ve ruined all the good characters. Petyr, Tyrion, Sandor, Jon Snow.

    I do like the new Margery Tyrell.

    But I can’t separate them. I will probably just resume not watching the show.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    But the show is fan fiction as far as I’m concerned. Its just another means by which to examine the characters in the books. I don’t consider it to be “what happened”

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    It reminds be of this commercial

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td4VEGiIQmk

    That is not entertaining.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    I claim this thread on behalf of the free folk.

    *Sticks dead dog on a spike and jams into ground to fortify claim.*

    Reply

  37. Linecom1

    a note to all the new(er)/former lurker fan responses: hi all….although i appeared as a guest host on this episode, i am in no way an official member of the podcast team, just a mere fan like the rest of you. its unfortunate that many of you did not enjoy listening to this episode as much as we did recording it, and you all are certainly free to voice your feedback and constructive criticisms……..HOWEVER………

    if you are going to criticize the podcast please do so in a constructive, respectful manner, especially if you are newer to the community. i am noticing a correlation between the newer voices and the harshness/vagueness of the criticisms.

    ALSO, if you’re going to give feedback, dont hide between anonymous names like “123″ or “enoughalready” or “hmmm” or “odd tactics”….if you’re gonna give feedback pick a name….it can be your actual name or a pseudonym……but anonymous names that are impossible to tag to an individual is just lame.

    i did not realize this until i actually did some guest spots on the pod, but our hosts work really hard, voluntarily for the podcast, ie. to edit this episode it probably took amin at least 10 hours of work on top of the 5 hours of recording. if you are giving feedback, you are probably in some way a FAN of the podcast, whether u lliked this particular episode or not……i’d encourage you all to make sure to voice you much you are a fan and enjoy their work despite the criticisms because it is very disheartening for our hard working hosts to go out of their way to post an episode only to get flooded by vague criticisms like “ashley needs to read more”…………

    you are all more than welcome in House Manwoody, but lets remember this is a house we have FUN in and not a place to talk shit like 5 yr old………….(save those for the dick jokes)………..

    these statements dont apply to all of you, but for those of you that it does, please consider my two cents as im sure it’ll only make your experience all the more enjoyable………..

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Agree.
    Respect and admire the work that all the hosts put in. They do an incredible job and I am extremely grateful for the product that they put out (as all listeners should be) I know I couldn’t do it. Wouldn’t even know where to start.
    I’m new to the forum, but not to the podcast itself or its source material.
    My name is Lewis, I am a 23 year old ex police officer curently training to be a forensic investigator from Scotland. (Or north of the Wall as I like to think of it. :D )
    Not trying to have a go at the show itself, I love it and they do a wonderful job putting together something that we can enjoy for free, no doubt about it.
    Yeah the show is free, no I’m not forced to listen to it, but I love listening to it, and if something pops up that makes me not want to listen even if only for an episode or a short while I get sad. :-(
    I don’t intend to or believe I nitpick. we all make mistakes and no-ones knowledge is perfect I myself have been corrected on points further up this very thread and am grateful to have them be corrected. I have voiced my thoughts coherently, purposefully (perhaps not as respectfully as they should have been, and that’s my own doing.)
    It wasn’t my intention to have a go at the hosts and I apologise if that is perhaps how any of my comments were received.
    I do however stand by my points and will voice my thoughts as any member of the free folk should. :-)
    Keep up the awesome work you guys do some spectacular work.
    So in conclusion, I concur.

    Reply

    mimi

    no worries, love. we’ve dealt with more than our fair share of shitty tear downs. i wasn’t offended by any of your feedback. and thank you for your appreciation of the ‘cast!

    larry is totally my homeboy, though.

    Reply

    Linecom1

    thanks for the clarification, nice to hear your thoughts and feedback and welcome to the forums……..

    Reply

    odd tatics

    Linecom1,
    How am hiding behind my name? I didn’t know to post here I needed to post my real name and address. so I’m not sure how I was being lame. I never questioned the podcast I actually love it. I was just questioning the tactics in the battle. How is that lame?

    Reply

    Linecom1

    if odd tactics is your actual pseudonym that you plan on using as your identifier then you are certainly not lame at all, and i retract you from my comments…….. sorry about that….

    i was under the impression you were using the name ‘odd tactics’ as an anonymous identifier that was more of a title of your post as opposed to your preferred pseudonym…..

    again if thats the case, i apologize for including you

    Reply

    Linecom1

    just realized you werent criticizing the episode at all, as you have said, so wwhether or not odd tactics is your preferred pseudonym or not, it doesnt matter at all, and i should have not included you in my list of examples at all…..

    again, for the 3rd time, sorry about that…..

    Reply

    odd tactics

    no worries.

    Reply

  38. Steve

    Ugh, listening to LoudLarry talk his nonsense over everyone with extreme self-importance and authority hurts my brain, had to turn the podcast off. “Dis mothafuckas comin!!”…seriously? This podcast is awesome because of intelligent discourse which Larry derailed.

    It’s a shame because I was really looking forward to the regulars digging deep into Episode 9.

    Reply

  39. Lord Littlefinger

    except its really interesting to see the perspective of someone who hasn’t read the books. And…. he’s quite perceptive and makes very good points.

    When they asked him what Robb should do now that Kingslanding has fallen…. what did Larry say? Bend the knee…. that’s a very good answer for someone going solely off the show.

    Reply

    Josh

    No. Larry is a dumb ass and having Robb “bend the knee” is stupid. They would ask him to Kings Landing to swear fealty as they did in season 1 and Joffery would likely kill him or take him prisoner to insure the Norths allegiance. You really think Tywin would just let Robb go on his merry way without making an example of him?

    Larry is a joke, people only watch him to laugh at his lame brain theories but now he’s too full of himself. There are plenty of smarter non-reader reviewers with much more insight and aren’t as douchey or annoying.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    No Robb is dumb. Undoubtedly inherited from his mentally enfeebled father. Robb get himself his mother and a lot of other people he claims to care about for no good reason. That has to be the definition of dumb. If that’s not dumb then nothing is numb. Hodor is smarter than Robb. SANSA is smarter than Robb. He’s a joke. They shou’dve nick named him North Star and he Gerold Dayne could be brethren. In fact are we sure Robb isn’t really a Martell? He seems like he could be Quentyn’s less clever older brother. The person who taught Arianne how to be completely obtuse.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    No Robb is dumb. Undoubtedly inherited from his mentally enfeebled father. Robb gets himself his mother and a lot of other people he claims to care about, killed, for no good reason. That has to be the definition of dumb. If that’s not dumb then nothing is dumb. Hodor is smarter than Robb. SANSA is smarter than Robb. He’s a joke. They shou’dve nick named him North Star and he and Gerold Dayne could be brethren. In fact are we sure Robb isn’t really a Martell? He seems like he could be Quentyn’s less clever older brother. The person who taught Arianne how to be completely obtuse.

    Reply

    Josh

    You can Robb dumb all you want it doesn’t change the fact that bending the knee is a stupid move. Everything you quote is from the books and is irrelevant when considering the opinion of a non-reader,in the show Robb has not ruined his relationship with the Freys and has ample forces to take the back the North and hold it against anyone. Robb may have been pardoned, big maybe, but even so there would be hostages and there would be sacrifices. Not to mention Robb would have to serve his father’s killer and live the rest of his days regarded as a coward.

    Regardless the best thing for Robb to do at this point in the show is take back the North, regroup, fortify against the south and bend the knee to Stannis in alliance against Joffery. There’s no reason for the north to bow to Joffery when there’s no chance of him taking the North.

    What I don’t understand is why Larry gets all butt hurt that Sansa choose to save herself rather than kill Joffery but is perfectly fine with Robb bending the knee and saving himself and sacrificing his allies rather than trying to kill Joffery, sounds a bit hypocritical.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Bending the knee isn’t stupid. Its the only logical course of action.

    What difference does it make whether its from the books or not? The place in the books it comes from are from after this point to begin with. The point where Robb needs to make the decision is when he return to Riverrun after OxCross, the point we are at in the show.

    “Robb has not ruined his relationship with the Freys”

    The Freys switch sides because Robb is losing. Not because of Jeyne Westerling. She’s just the convenient excuse. Were she not, he’d still be the “the king who lost the North”

    ” and has ample forces to take the back the North and hold it against anyone”.

    Does he? The reason Roose Bolton is able to retake the North is that he has the help of the Freys and Balon Greyjoy is dead Euron is King and abandons to the conquest of the North. The only forces left to oppose Roose are unsupported, unsupplied and undesirable. The Cods and the men loyal to Asha.

    “Robb may have been pardoned, big maybe, but even so there would be hostages and there would be sacrifices.”

    He maybe murdered by his own men for pursuing a hopeless causes as well.

    “Not to mention Robb would have to serve his father’s killer and live the rest of his days regarded as a coward.”

    Yeah…. so?

    “Regardless the best thing for Robb to do at this point in the show is take back the North, regroup, fortify against the south and bend the knee to Stannis in alliance against Joffery.”

    Oh that might be a viable option. But of course, assuming Robb is willing to abandon the Riverlands, his mother’s lands to his father’s killers. Surely this is nearly as odious as bending the knee, is it not? And certainly the Frey won’t take kindly to being abandoned and so a Frey by marriage Roose Bolton cannot take kindly to it either. Might not they be inclined to make a separate peace?

    “There’s no reason for the north to bow to Joffery when there’s no chance of him taking the North.”

    Is there no chance? Surely a Karstark or a Bolton or a Dustin can be found that might seek elevation to the position of liege lord with Witnerfell as their seat? But yes, this is what I meant essentially by bend the knee. Go back North and present a foritable opposition. Recognize Joffrey as king but do not appear to in person to pledge fealty. And do not openly support Stannis.

    “What I don’t understand is why Larry gets all butt hurt that Sansa choose to save herself rather than kill Joffery but is perfectly fine with Robb bending the knee and saving himself and sacrificing his allies rather than trying to kill Joffery, sounds a bit hypocritical.”

    Because Robb has done other things. He has other accomplishments, particularly since on the show the Blackfish isn’t winning all of Robb’s battles for him. So Larry has the impulse that Robb’s life is worth preserving while Sansa doesn’t do anything anyway so she might as well kill herself and take Joffrey with her. At least that would be something.

    Reply

    Josh

    Again you’re speaking as someone with the gift of hindsight, bending the knee only seems like the only logical course to you because you know the mistakes Robb will make in the future but but in the show he hasn’t made them yet. If Robb hadn’t messed up things with the Frey’s he would still be alive and fighting the Lannisters, you could argue that Stannis’s curse killed Robb and that he was doomed either way but thats not the point. In the show Robb as plenty of viable options, to just give up at this point would be silly.

    I get what you’re saying about the Riverlands but a good percentage of it is already in ruin and Riverrun could easily be held with a decent garrison until Robb could ally with Stannis, formulate an attack plan and return.

    The point I’m trying to make here is only someone with future knowledge of the books would see bending the knee at this point a viable option, so either Larry knows about Robb’s future or someone with knowledge of the books is helping him reach this conclusion, otherwise it makes no sense at all and would be a stupid move for Robb at this point in the show.

    “Because Robb has done other things. He has other accomplishments.”

    He won some battles but if he bends the knee, those accomplishments mean what exactly?

    “Larry has the impulse that Robb’s life is worth preserving while Sansa doesn’t do anything anyway so she might as well kill herself”

    Robb is dumb, like you said so why is he so important? It’s not like there aren’t other “smarter” Starks to inherit Winterfell. Plus Sansa in the books now is poised to accomplish more than Robb ever did. I just think it’s foolish to write anyone off as useless in this story because anything can happen.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    There is some hindsight involved. But I don’t think an undue amount. Robb has lived in Westeros his whole life and is the son of a liege lord. We were just introduced to Westeros and have to pick everything up as we go along. Given the information available to Robb, he should be able to understand why it would be appropriate to to pursue a peace, if only a temporary one. He is facing overwhelming force, all the might of Casterly Rock and Highgarden.

    Stannis is not a viable option for Robb. The vast majority of his forces either were defeated of switched sides. There’s no reason for Robb to ally with Stannis just as Wyman Manderly refuses to ally with but-fore the services of Davos. Wyman Manerly alone commands more men than Stannis.

    The point I’m trying to make is that. Robb as a much greater education about the history of Westeros than do the readers. Someone reading the book might well think that its a good idea for Robb to continue to press his case. But someone schooled in the politics of Westeros should realize that Robb can martial his forces while bending the knee and rise again when the opportunity presents itself. Something Roose Bolton realizes.

    Robb’s victories don’t mean anything anyway. He won some battles but the Lannister have prevailed and have a powerful new ally. That is clear from the show.

    Robb isn’t important. He’s an idiot like his father. But Larry doesn’t know that. Because he thinks Robb is winning his victories by merit. When infact its the Blackfish and Catelyn securing Robb’s alliances and planning his battles.

    Reply

    Josh

    “Stannis is not a viable option for Robb. ”

    Stannis is the BEST option for Robb at this point for a couple of reasons.

    1. Robb doesn’t wanna be king, he really just wants Joffery dead, Stannis could fill that spot and he needs any ally he can get.

    2. Stannis may not have the forces he did at Blackwater but he still has a fleet, which Robb needs badly (the reason he sent Theon in the first place) Stannis can use his fleet to get to the North and assist in hitting Moat Cailin from behind.

    So with Stannis Robb now has ships and access to the north which will be easy to take back with Moat Cailin a non issuee
    and he has someone to take the throne when all is said and done, so you see its a very viable option.

    This will be my last reply because I feel like we’re going around in circles and I’ve made my point, plus you haven’t really refuted anything I’ve said.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Josh…Josh don’t be so hasty…

    I have been addressing your points. Robb has good reasons to expect a pardon, with some cost. I can’t refute your point that Robb won’t bend the because Robb doesn’t want to bend the knee. My point is Robb not wanting to bend the knee is what makes him stupid. Or rather, how we can tell he is stupid.

    Stannis does have a fleet. And bending the knee to him might provide access to it. However I don’t believe Robb has access to the narrow sea. He’s cut off from Stannis by the Lannister and Tyrell armies.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    I’ll also note this is the first you mentioned of using Stannis’ fleet to get North. That is your best point. If it could be done, then I would agree with you. It may well be worth a try. I don’t think Stannis would do it nor do I think Robb’s army can reach him. If Robb could get North then I would agree that he may not need to bend the knee. Though, I still think it would be the wisest thing to do. He is not the king in the North facing 7 kingdoms but facing 1 or 2 depending on how you count.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    Tywin would take him pound of flesh and his hostages. Someone has to rule the North and Tywin is better off with Robb Stark that Roose Bolton. Better a dimwitted weakened liege lord in decline than an ascendant, cunning and ruthless lord like Roose.

    “Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will. When I’ve won your war for you, we will restore the king’s peace and the king’s justice. The only head that need concern you is Margaery Tyrell’s maidenhead.”

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    “King Robb has won every battle,” Brienne said stoutly, as stubbornly loyal of speech as she was of deed.
    “Won every battle, while losing the Freys, the Karstarks, Winterfell, and the north. A pity the wolf is so young. Boys of sixteen always believe they are immortal and invincible. An older man would bend the knee, I’d think.

    After a war there is always a peace, and with peace there are pardons… for the Robb Starks, at least.

    Not for the likes of Vargo Hoat.” Bolton gave him a small smile. “Both sides have made use of him, but neither will shed a tear at his passing. The Brave Companions did not fight in the Battle of the Blackwater, yet they died there all the same.”
    “You’ll forgive me if I don’t mourn?”
    “You have no pity for our wretched doomed goat? Ah, but the gods must…

    Reply

  40. spacechampion

    It was definitely Ser Mandon Moore in both the book and the TV show who tries to kill Tyrion. Moore was introduced earlier last episode when Cersei tells him to bring in Ros to show Tyrion she has his whore in her custody. I think it was Moore also who mentioned the servants were stealing valuables and Cersei told him to cut their heads off and stick them on a pike near the stables.

    Reply

  41. Ser Someguy

    The Kingsguard who attacked Tyrion was almost certainly Mandon Moore, just as in the books (as backed-up by the sudden introduction of him earlier in the episode, and then the specific assignment of him to fight with Tyrion in the flanking maneuver). I’d be interested to see where it was suggested otherwise.

    Reply

  42. I just came here to see what’s up with 150+ comments *jerry jerry*

    Reply

  43. Rosie (vietrose)

    disclaimer: My Opinion and Observations, don’t hate me for it. I still like Larry despite what you see below.

    As someone subsricbed to OtakuAssemble for over a year, he has gradually grated on my nerves that I’ve been tempted to unsubscribe. I watched almost all his videos (except the reviews of shows I haven’t watched, recaps such as Thundercats and other HBO shows) since the partnership and then some old ones.

    His rant videos about haters and sansa haters really put me off even though I wasn’t one of those “haters.” I’ve seen other youtubers with way more popularity who dealt with “haters” in a much more calm, dignified and respectful manner including this podcast. He just adds fuel to the fire and he’s just as angry. His generalizations of people such as “haters” or those of a certain opinion really tick me off too.

    His anime reviews are sub-par compared to other anime reviewers such as JesuOtaku and very narrow to just shonen which doesn’t constitute to me as an anime expert (you need to see more than just boy’s fare). And he can be quite elitist sometimes.

    His reviews in general are getting ridiculous because he just seems to complain about the stupidity of characters and their actions, but if they weren’t there would be no story or conflict. Humans are stupid from time to time y’know. An example during this podcast is about how people react to trauma as if they we should all be vengeful or epic afterwards – clearly he’s been too influenced by shonen anime. And he uses the same speech patterns over and over again like “case and point.” >_>

    And he talks down to his audience for not seeing a show, or on other people’s opinions (which is worse), not to mention refuses to acknowledge any crediblity to them as if it their opinion is stupid and worth anything. Sometimes he ignores it and just repeats his opinion again (like in this podcast).

    I’m not against really popular youtubers who have thousands of subscribers selling merchandise or doing sponserships (I watch the beauty community on youtube, okay?). The way he “markets” his channel with the ‘Otaku faithful’ and selling t-shirts is so arrogant. It seems so obvious he wants the money like badly even though he only has 6000 subscribers. Other youtubers have merchandise but they have 100k+ subscribers. I guess it’s smart marketing on his part but it’s a bit jarring.

    It becomes more apparent to me as I keep watching his videos that as Steve put it an air “self-importance and authority” = arrogrance to him that I just wanna smack him sometimes.

    I don’t mind Larry being on the podcast once in a while (since his niche as a tv-only fan is interesting and explains his boost in popularity) but I just wanted to back up those who don’t share the popular favorable opinion of him. Despite all this I still to watch Larry and tune in for his opinions, just not with as much enthusiasm as before.

    Reply

  44. jesicka309

    LOUD NOISES. *rocks and and forth*

    Clearly this is your most controversial episode now, 160 comments?!? Own it, Brotherhood without Manners.

    Chill out everyone. Could be worse…they could stop making the podcast. That would be a worthy topic to rant about. :)

    Reply

  45. Tom

    God damn y’all. If this keeps up I won’t be known as the curmudgeonly commenter/asshole anymore.

    Reply

    mimi

    you’ll still always be my favorite curmudgeon.

    Reply

  46. Combeboy

    Just curious, but am I the only one who cant help but to laugh out loud after the Wildfire explosion when we see Pyromancer Hallyne’s face.
    Everyone else is like “WTF/OMG” he is just the dirty old man laughing away “Heh heh heh, fuckin told ye”

    Reply

    Andres

    I love Roy Dotrice. He has played his few scenes as the “screw-loose” pyromancer perfectly. I particularly loved his glee as he described how wildfire “melts the flesh”.

    Nice to see the audio-book reader as a participant in the TV show, and as an actor that nails the role.

    Reply

    Combeboy

    Yeah love the audiobooks. He was meant to play Grand Maester Pycelle but took ill. Shame, awesome in this role though.
    The man’s a record holder also. In the Guiness Book of World records for the most characters voiced in a single reading.
    Hope we get so see more of him.

    Reply

  47. Usurpationblitz

    Azor Ahai! What in 7 hells happened here? I’ll have to come back latter and read this whole thing.

    Reply

  48. The Warden of the North

    I hate to come on the internet and bitch. But seriously. Enough with bringing Larry on the show. We listen to your podcast about the show BECAUSE you can interject with book knowledge. When Amin has to say “we can discuss that in the aftershow” every 3 minutes bc Larry is there then everyone loses.

    There are plenty of sources for people to just get show reviews. It’s the fact that you also cater to book readers that make you special.

    I’m not even criticizing the stuff Larry says, that’s a whole other conversation, and a long one at that. IJS, he shouldn’t be there because he takes away from the entire point.

    Reply

  49. Jim

    I really enjoy the podcast but next time I see that Larry is a guest I will just skip it. I got halfway through and just couldn’t concentrate because of him. I don’t necessarily dislike him just because he is ignorant, because I have some ignorant friends and family that I truly love, but the fact that he’s so loud and abrasive and boisterous while being ignorant just makes for unbearable listening. Total Dunning-Kruger effect there.

    Reply

    Andres

    1. I had to look that up.
    2. And YES.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    What is he supposed to be ignorant of?

    I have no problem with him being loud, does your computer not have volume control?

    I just don’t understand in what way he’s abrasive or boisterous unless by that you mean loud. I which case see my previous question.

    Reply

    Andres

    Larry, like anal HPV, is manageable. I would still prefer to not have anal HPV.

    Reply

    Jim

    Larry’s inability to accept the legitimacy of ideas counter to his own is one of the hallmarks of ignorance. This really stood out to me during the tactical discussion of the attack on the Mud Gate, with Larry voicing bad ideas, being countered politely, and then reiterating those bad ideas, completely unphased. And it just felt like more of that throughout the entire podcast. I listen to the podcast for reasonable and thoughtful discussion of the series and I don’t feel like Larry is providing that. Furthermore, his boisterousness is more concerning the nature of self-aggrandizing comments.

    Take an example:
    ” I’m just curious about something – who on the call has actually brushed up with immediate danger before ”
    Self-aggrandizing phrasing, as there is no need to point out if the other participants on the call have ever faced danger before to make his point.

    Normal people would have phrased that as ” If you’ve ever been in a situation where you’ve been faced with immediate danger, you know that…”

    A slight difference, which might seem small and nitpicky, until you aggregate all of these little differences throughout the entire podcast.

    Lastly, his comments regarding actual historical figures were just…ignorant. As in, he had no idea what he was talking about. As in, the whole reason I called him ignorant in the first place. He showed no knowledge of history, military tactics, and series canon, and therefore ignorant was the most accurate word to use.

    Maybe Larry is a great person, I don’t know him, but I feel that his presence highly detracted from the podcast.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    I see. I don’t expect him to know any more that what the show has informed of. And I know when I read the books I discovered all sorts of things. I don’t think I knew who Theon was after the first season. And I blame the producers and HBO for that.

    I enjoy hearing what Larry does and does pick up on from watching the show.

    I like this podcast quite a bit, but I wouldn’t consider it reasoned and thoughtful. Its not inane, but its not Stefan Sasse either.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    That’s not WHY I listen to it, shocking lack of knowledge and all.

    I thought Larry’s discussion of the Mud Gate was quite valid. And its why I like hearing what he thinks. I when I was watching the episode, I tend to think, what really happened is there’re only a few half drowned men making it across the bridge of ships and that’s why the attack is not organized. But that is not the case in the TV show, so attacking multiple places to maximize the benefit from your numeric superiority is a perfectly valid strategy. It calls into question the premise of Stannis’ leadership.

    This approach is referred to multiple times in the series, Luwin advising Theon, Mance negotiating with Jon Snow, Lady Smallwood at acorn hall.

    Also, the fact that Stannis should have bent the knee to Renly. I think its one of the best what-if scenarios in the books. If Stannis was going to kill Renly with a shadow baby anyway, why not bend the knee kill off the Lannisters and then assassinate Renly?

    Those are all good observations on Larry’s part.

    Reply

  50. Goodlovin

    I cant believe I listened to a 3 hour podcast of ice and fire.

    Outside of one of the guest hosts who is just annoying and a little to ass kissy it was solid as usual.

    Reply

    Linecom1

    thanks……..

    Reply

    Goodlovin

    Np

    Reply

    Will

    I think this pretty much sums up the episode for me.

    Reply

  51. Goodlovin

    I was never a big Larry fan but he can be entertaining though.

    Its kind of funny that he ripped of ESPN’s Stephen A Smiths schtick though.

    Reply

  52. Lord Littlefinger

    yeah he’s basically like any sports talk show host. people take what he’s saying to literally and seriously.

    Reply

    Andres

    Does not matter if you take it seriously or not. He turns the podcast into the Larry show, talks over everyone else, and has nothing intelligent to say.

    So if you like “random obnoxious babbling” then I guess you’´ll love it.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    1) There’s a whole talk radio industry based on random obnoxious babbling.

    2) Second he says all sorts of intelligent things. Like that Robb should go back North and bend the knee.

    Reply

  53. Lex

    I really liked the aftershow (and not just because I was on it). I like hearing such random forum members! Nice work Amin and Ash.

    Reply

    Lex

    Oh, and… 200 comments!!! :D

    Reply

  54. Hard Core Richard

    Love the podcast. Love all the hosts. If you are accepting feedback, I would prefer episodes without Larry. For all the above-stated reasons.

    Reply

  55. Max

    I only listened to this because of Larry and was surprised by all the hate in the comments… As far as I remember the last time he was on everyone was saying the complete opposite, that his views are refreshing and he has good theories about what might happen…. And yes, his reviews aren’t as enthusiastic and cheery as last year but it’s mainly because this season is not as good as last years!

    Reply

  56. Max

    Yeah and “book purists” can go fuck themselves

    Reply

  57. Will

    Just wanted to say that I enjoy hearing Larry on the podcast once or twice a season. Structurally, I prefer when everyone has read the books because it leads to more in depth discussions that I find more interesting, but I like getting the reaction of a non book reader on occasion as well because it provides an important calibration on the overall quality of the show. Book readers are much more likely to give the show a pass on leaving things out or rushing through something if they can fill in the holes with their memory of the books.

    That said, I preferred the after show to the actual show this episode. Having two hosts and three guests created an imbalance where the guests did most of the talking. I listen each week because I find the hosts’ opinions interesting. I like the addition of a guest or two to provide a fresh perspective on the show each week, but I probably wouldn’t listen if the show were all guests each week.

    Reply

  58. What´s with this Lord Littlefinger dude and his noise? It boggles my mind that someone´d spend so much time typing all these posts and white-knighting Larry.

    Reply

    Lord Littlefinger

    What do you mean? It didn’t take very much time at all. I’m in front of a computer all day at work.

    As for Larry. I don’t think the comments are fair and some are vaguely racist, “jive talk” and what not.

    But I’m much more interested in discussing why Robb Stark was an idiot than Larry’s commentary.

    Reply

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